# Dylann Roof is a Terrorist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074 "2015-06-21T14:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/141 "2015-06-22T16:17:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So what you’re saying is that everyone who commits premeditated murder is insane? :rolleyes: As if this were a simple case of premeditated murder. And I didnt say he is insane…which is a legal term; I said he was mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/142 "2015-06-22T16:19:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Point taken about the “radicalization” narrative. But I call Roof a terrorist because it fits with the long-term terrorism throughout American history and up into the last century committed against black people in America, which includes other church attacks, bombings, and the like (among many, many other forms of violence). Well then black gangs must also be terrorists because "… it fits with the long-term terrorism throughout American history and up into the last century committed against black people in America’. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/143 "2015-06-22T16:31:15Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Well then black gangs must also be terrorists because "… it fits with the long-term terrorism throughout American history and up into the last century committed against black people in America’. No it doesn’t, since black gangs never operated as part of an ongoing campaign to try and keep the black community from voting, from speaking out, from exercising political rights, and from being treated equally to white people. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/144 "2015-06-22T16:46:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it doesn’t, since black gangs never operated as part of an ongoing campaign to try and keep the black community from voting, from speaking out, from exercising political rights, and from being treated equally to white people. How naive. Of course gangs stop their communities from speaking out and violate their civil rights. Seems like black lives only matter when they are killed by white people. People die everyday and no one seems to care. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/145 "2015-06-22T16:51:17Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Yes it is. Well, that’s that then. Your assertion that something is true is taken for exactly what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/146 "2015-06-22T17:16:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Well, that’s that then. Your assertion that something is true is taken for exactly what it’s worth. You did exactly the same thing in response to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/147 "2015-06-22T17:58:51Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > How naive. Of course gangs stop their communities from speaking out and violate their civil rights. Those are not the goals of gangs in America. In America in the real world, gangs exist to make money selling drugs or from other illegal activities. They don’t have political goals (like start a race war, or terrify black people into leaving town, or the like). > [@](#): > > Seems like black lives only matter when they are killed by white people. People die everyday and no one seems to care. It doesn’t seem like this to me. From my reading of various black writers and journalists, and my personal interactions with black people (including members of my family), there is plenty of concern over all types of crime, including crimes committed by black people. But such crime is irrelevant to discussions like this one about the sort of historical terrorism committed against black people, which includes mass killings like last week’s shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/148 "2015-06-22T18:34:40Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You did exactly the same thing in response to me. No. I simply dismissed your content-free assertion. If you’d like us to make the connection, it’s your job to show why we should take it seriously. You don’t get to be taken seriously by default. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/149 "2015-06-22T19:04:46Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > As if this were a simple case of premeditated murder. And I didnt say he is insane…which is a legal term; I said he was mentally ill. How do you define “mentally ill”? I think of it as some that prevents a person from functioning effectively. Roof seemed all too effective at functioning. The fact his beliefs and actions are evil in our terms does not mean (to me) that he is “ill”. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/150 "2015-06-22T19:49:36Z")
Effective functioning includes not murdering a group of people, so yes, he is mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/151 "2015-06-22T19:53:20Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > :rolleyes: > > As if this were a simple case of premeditated murder. And I didnt say he is insane…which is a legal term; I said he was mentally ill. …which is a medical term. I got my DSM-5 right here; what’s your basis for diagnosing mental illness? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/152 "2015-06-22T20:18:22Z")
> [@andros](#): > > …which is a medical term. I got my DSM-5 right here; what’s your basis for diagnosing mental illness? “Mental illness” is not a term copyrighted by the medical establishment. It’s a term in use in common English. [One definition of mental illness](https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions#sthash.1GaeRgdh.dpuf) is: > [@](#): > > A condition that impacts a person’s thinking, feeling or mood may affect and his or her ability to relate to others and function on a daily basis. Surely if you have a mental state that leads to your relating to others by murdering them because of their skin color, that’s not a mentally healthy outlook. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/153 "2015-06-22T20:23:20Z")
[An article arguing that DSM should include “prejudice” as a subcategory of delusional disorder](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071634/). Delusional disorder: > [@](#): > > Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness called a “psychosis” in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated. > > People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner. This is unlike people with other psychotic disorders, who also might have delusions as a symptom of their disorder. In some cases, however, people with delusional disorder might become so preoccupied with their delusions that their lives are disrupted. > > Although delusions might be a symptom of more common disorders, such as schizophrenia, delusional disorder itself is rather rare. Delusional disorder most often occurs in middle to late life and is slightly more common in women than in men. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/154 "2015-06-22T20:33:19Z")
As I said, the problem is that he functioned _too_ well at that. I don’t buy that every spree or serial killer is mentally ill. You might just as well say they’re “evil”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/155 "2015-06-22T20:37:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As I said, the problem is that he functioned _too_ well at that. I don’t buy that every spree or serial killer is mentally ill. You might just as well say they’re “evil”. Nah. If someone commits a highly planned murder because their dog tells them to do it, they’re still delusional about the dog bit. If someone goes on a shooting spree because their victims are secretly lizard-people, they’re still delusional about the lizard-people bit. If someone kills a bunch of people because black people are raping our women, they’re still delusional about the raping-our-women bit. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/156 "2015-06-22T20:59:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Mental illness” is not a term copyrighted by the medical establishment. It’s a term in use in common English. [One definition of mental illness](https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions#sthash.1GaeRgdh.dpuf) is: Fair enough. But by the same token, **madsircool** is wrong in claiming that “insane” is a purely legal term. That’s all I was intending to address. > [@](#): > > Surely if you have a mental state that leads to your relating to others by murdering them because of their skin color, that’s not a mentally healthy outlook. Certainly. I absolutely think he’s what we in the psychological fields call “fucking nuts.” But I’m not going to _diagnose_ him as mentally ill any more that I would make a _legal_ determination of insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/157 "2015-06-22T21:00:05Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Certainly. I absolutely think he’s what we in the psychological fields call “fucking nuts.” But I’m not going to _diagnose_ him as mentally ill any more that I would make a _legal_ determination of insanity. That makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/158 "2015-06-22T21:06:59Z")
Thanks. Honestly, part of the difficulty with the entire issue of mental illness is that it’s essentially defined as deviation from human norms…which are themselves very broad and nuanced. It’s easy enough when we have something clear and relatively concrete like schizoform disorders or OCD. It gets much murkier (and therefore harder to diagnose) when we’re talking about fucked-up thinking. Is a terrorist mentally ill when she [blows up a market](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33232146)? Maybe, maybe not. Is she fucking nuts? IMHO, from my comfy desk chair, absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/159 "2015-07-10T18:24:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The man accused of killing nine people in a historically black church in South Carolina last month should not have been able to buy the gun he used in the attack, the F.B.I. said Friday, in what was the latest acknowledgment of flaws in the national background check system. A loophole in the system allowed the man, Dylann Roof, to buy the .45-caliber handgun despite having previously admitted to drug possession, the F.B.I. said. Mr. Roof first tried to buy the gun on April 11, from a dealer in South Carolina. The F.B.I., which conducts background checks for gun sales, told the dealer not to proceed with the purchase because agents needed to do more investigating about Mr. Roof’s s criminal history. > > Under federal law, the F.B.I. has three days to determine whether there is sufficient evidence to deny the purchase. If the bureau cannot come up with an answer, the purchaser can return to the dealer and buy the gun. In the case of Mr. Roof, his application was not resolved in three days and he returned to store and was sold the gun. The F.B.I. said the delay was the product of a breakdown in communication between federal agents and local authorities in South Carolina. > **[Background Check Flaw Let Dylann Roof Buy Gun, F.B.I. Says (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/us/background-check-flaw-let-dylann-roof-buy-gun-fbi-says.html)** > > A loophole in the law and an F.B.I. error led to the sale of the gun used to kill nine people at a Charleston, S.C., church, the bureau said. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074/160 "2015-07-10T18:53:11Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > ‘Terrorist’ seems to seems to have become politicized to the extent that it’s no longer that useful a term. . . . Yeah. If it were still 1953, he’d be a Godless commie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylann-roof-is-a-terrorist/723074.md?page=9)