# Dylan's 'Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts': a discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 23, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460 "2009-03-23T15:07:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/21 "2010-12-12T17:32:50Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is probably best not to think to hard about lines like, “Be careful not to touch the wall there’s a brand new coat of paint,” If they’d touched the wall, they would have felt the vibrations of Jack’s gang drilling through the wall. At least that was always my take on it. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/22 "2010-12-12T18:08:39Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > If they’d touched the wall, they would have felt the vibrations of Jack’s gang drilling through the wall. > > At least that was always my take on it. That’s been my interpretation, but hey, Lily is saying it to the Jack of Hearts, so it becomes somewhat nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/23 "2010-12-12T18:35:22Z")
But on third thought, perhaps Jack’s gang had arranged to have the walls painted so that people wouldn’t touch the walls and detect the drilling. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/24 "2010-12-12T19:21:24Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > But on third thought, perhaps Jack’s gang had arranged to have the walls painted so that people wouldn’t touch the walls and detect the drilling. Ooooh, now you’re thinking! (But probably more than the Bard of Electric Folk ever did.) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/25 "2010-12-12T20:15:47Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The town’s “only diamond mine” may well be a metaphorical reference to Jim simply being the wealthiest man in town > …Dylan often added nonsensical lyrics to keep meter and add baseless “complexity” to the narrative. And herein lies my difficulty in taking him too seriously as an poet–his words make literal sense except when they don’t, and rather than ask too closely what the hell he means by “diamond mine,” you go, “Oh, it just means Jim was rich, don’t go looking for significance, he could have said ‘car-wash king’ or ‘pasha’ , same difference.” As to the second quoted snippet above, this is far more typical of hacks and fakers than geniuses. Poets and genuises sometimes make mistakes, have lapses in their artistry, but Dylan has built a career around such schlock. Dudn’t mean he isn’;t a good songwriter, but means I can’t take him to be any kind of craftsman or poet. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/26 "2010-12-12T21:22:20Z")
> [@bryan8888](#): > > What about the theory that someone took the bullets (maybe rosemary) out of Jim’s gun. It was a “cold revolver” after all, and it only clicked when he pressed the trigger. Was it? I always thought it was a Colt revolver. The clicking, I assumed, was it being cocked. ---
**Author:** ![bryan8888](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@bryan8888](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryan8888)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/27 "2010-12-13T02:06:49Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Was it? I always thought it was a Colt revolver. The clicking, I assumed, was it being cocked. The official Bob Dylan site says “cold revolver”. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/28 "2010-12-13T06:00:46Z")
I guess he’d know, huh? Regardless, I’d still think the clicking was it cocking, not the gun “firing” empty. ---
**Author:** ![bryan8888](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@bryan8888](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryan8888)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/29 "2010-12-13T12:24:10Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > And herein lies my difficulty in taking him too seriously as an poet–his words make literal sense except when they don’t, and rather than ask too closely what the hell he means by “diamond mine,” you go, “Oh, it just means Jim was rich, don’t go looking for significance, he could have said ‘car-wash king’ or ‘pasha’ , same difference.” > > As to the second quoted snippet above, this is far more typical of hacks and fakers than geniuses. Poets and genuises sometimes make mistakes, have lapses in their artistry, but Dylan has built a career around such schlock. Dudn’t mean he isn’;t a good songwriter, but means I can’t take him to be any kind of craftsman or poet. I do agree sometimes Dylan is a little sloppy in his writing, but then again he is writing songs . . . not poems. In this case however, I think the Diamond Mine reference works well for a metaphor for wealth, and is not intended to be taken literally. It also works as a nice contrast to the JoH, diamonds being the counter-suit to hearts in a deck of cards! ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/30 "2010-12-13T12:41:02Z")
> [@bryan8888](#): > > I do agree sometimes Dylan is a little sloppy in his writing, but then again he is writing songs . . . not poems. In this case however, I think the Diamond Mine reference works well for a metaphor for wealth, and is not intended to be taken literally. It also works as a nice contrast to the JoH, diamonds being the counter-suit to hearts in a deck of cards! Well, I do have the same problem with people who take scripture seriously, too–they say (as Dylan freaks tend to) that their text is golden, brilliant, unparalleled wisdom, except for the parts that are metaphors and must be understood by granting poetic license to a text whose literal truth is otherwise insisted upon everywhere else. For example, in your “diamonds/hearts” thing, the obvious question is “Okay, where do clubs and spades figure into Dylan’s thinking?” and the answer (I suppose) is 'Uh, nowhere," which suggests that the opposition of diamonds and hearts is probably coincidental on Dylan’s part, and over-reaching on yours. For a system to make sense, it must be somewhat systematic, but the logic of Dylan’s writing is that it’s pretty much hit or miss (I don’t think he missed much on all of Blonde on Blonde, for example, or Highway 61 revisited, and parts of Blood on the Tracks are outstanding lyrically) but you’re right, they’re songs, not poems, and as such I classify them as entertainment, not art, and Dylan as an entertainer, not an artist, for that reason. More than anyone else, and certainly recently (have you seen the dreck that was his last mish-mosh movie? I forget the name–it had Jeff Bridges and Jessica Lange and other movie stars in it—was an embarrassment of pretention), his attempts at grand meaning make me cringe. Anyway, back to my point: can someone tell me how they’d pitch the narrative to a movie producer, not “Dylan’s brilliant song, mysterious and strange,” but just as a narrative, with plot angles, character’s motivations, genre? Sell me your narrative as narrative, make me interested in seeing this film made. “It’s about this robbery where there’s a distraction made by the gangleader who gets his mistress to kill someone” raises more questions than it answers. Tell me how you’d pitch it. You’ve got a minute or two. Go. ---
**Author:** ![bryan8888](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@bryan8888](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryan8888)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/31 "2010-12-14T07:24:40Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Well, I do have the same problem with people who take scripture seriously, too–they say (as Dylan freaks tend to) that their text is golden, brilliant, unparalleled wisdom, except for the parts that are metaphors and must be understood by granting poetic license to a text whose literal truth is otherwise insisted upon everywhere else. For example, in your “diamonds/hearts” thing, the obvious question is “Okay, where do clubs and spades figure into Dylan’s thinking?” and the answer (I suppose) is 'Uh, nowhere," which suggests that the opposition of diamonds and hearts is probably coincidental on Dylan’s part, and over-reaching on yours. For a system to make sense, it must be somewhat systematic, but the logic of Dylan’s writing is that it’s pretty much hit or miss (I don’t think he missed much on all of Blonde on Blonde, for example, or Highway 61 revisited, and parts of Blood on the Tracks are outstanding lyrically) but you’re right, they’re songs, not poems, and as such I classify them as entertainment, not art, and Dylan as an entertainer, not an artist, for that reason. More than anyone else, and certainly recently (have you seen the dreck that was his last mish-mosh movie? I forget the name–it had Jeff Bridges and Jessica Lange and other movie stars in it—was an embarrassment of pretention), his attempts at grand meaning make me cringe. > > Anyway, back to my point: can someone tell me how they’d pitch the narrative to a movie producer, not “Dylan’s brilliant song, mysterious and strange,” but just as a narrative, with plot angles, character’s motivations, genre? Sell me your narrative as narrative, make me interested in seeing this film made. “It’s about this robbery where there’s a distraction made by the gangleader who gets his mistress to kill someone” raises more questions than it answers. Tell me how you’d pitch it. You’ve got a minute or two. Go. I think it is a confusing to a lot of listeners when Dylan throws a story/balled song like this onto an albumn like Blood on the Tracks, which is fairly personal and emotional . . . it probably belongs more on an albumn like Desire. I agree with you, this is a very literal song, and if you read through it the story is quite clear. I’ve read some absolutely ridiculous interpretations of this song that did not come close to picking up on the narrative. I think it is a nice little tune, and I think that Dylan had a fairly clear picture of the story in his head as he was writing it, which is why it is interesting to piece the story together, in just the same way it would be interesting to piece together a murder mystery. While the story itself may not be all that enthralling, I’m more interested in the technical aspects of the song writing and the way perspective changes. The rotating / revolving birds-eye-view narration makes it seem cinematic, which is why people think it would make a good movie. The truth is, it would be a terrible movie because the story just isn’t that good . . . it’s a typical holllywood style western with a few twists to keep the pages turning. Not much there in the way of content, but I still think the writing is good, and manages to create a space for the listeners mind to play around in for a while. Entertainment, yes, but, all art is entertainment in my book. If it’s purporting to be anything else it approaches religion, and I’ll have non of that. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/32 "2010-12-14T10:32:06Z")
> [@bryan8888](#): > > If it’s purporting to be anything else it approaches religion, and I’ll have non of that. Nitpick: you mean “nun” of that. ---
**Author:** ![bryan8888](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@bryan8888](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryan8888)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/33 "2010-12-14T12:53:07Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Nitpick: you mean “nun” of that. ha! ---
**Author:** ![winkosmosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/db5fbb/32.png) [@winkosmosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/winkosmosis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/34 "2011-12-27T01:21:53Z")
Every discussion and interpretation of this song ignores this line: “It was known all around that Lily had Jim’s ring” Lily is Jim’s wife, not Rosemary. Rosemary _plays the role_ of Big Jim’s wife. Also, Rosemary was “looking like a queen without a crown”. Every sign points to Jim having an affair with Rosemary. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/35 "2011-12-27T01:29:50Z")
Did they even have diamond mines in the Old West? I don’t think they did. Maybe this song takes place in South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![winkosmosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/db5fbb/32.png) [@winkosmosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/winkosmosis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/36 "2011-12-27T01:35:58Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Did they even have diamond mines in the Old West? I don’t think they did. Maybe this song takes place in South Africa. Yes there were, but the point is that Big Jim is the King of Diamonds, and the diamond suite represents wealth as opposed to Hearts which represents love. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/37 "2011-12-27T01:39:01Z")
> [@winkosmosis](#): > > Yes there were, but the point is that Big Jim is the King of Diamonds, and the diamond suit represents wealth as opposed to Hearts which represents love. Then Sheriff Bart would be…? ---
**Author:** ![winkosmosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/db5fbb/32.png) [@winkosmosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/winkosmosis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/38 "2011-12-27T01:41:58Z")
This also makes it clear Rosemary is the mistress: Rosemary combed her hair and took a carriage into town She slipped in through the\* side door\* lookin’ like a _queen without a crown_ ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/39 "2011-12-27T02:55:20Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Then Sheriff Bart would be…? The sheriff is a sp_DONG_ ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460/40 "2011-12-27T04:28:53Z")
> [@winkosmosis](#): > > Every discussion and interpretation of this song ignores this line: “It was known all around that Lily had Jim’s ring” > > Lily is Jim’s wife, not Rosemary. Rosemary _plays the role_ of Big Jim’s wife. Also, Rosemary was “looking like a queen without a crown”. Every sign points to Jim having an affair with Rosemary. Interesting, but I’m unconvinced. Lily is introduced with the lines: _Backstage the girls were playin’ five-card stud by the stairs Lily had two queens, she was hopin’ for a third to match her pair_ If Lily was married to Jim, I doubt she’d still be a showgirl in the saloon. It’s implied that Rosemary enters the saloon and joins up with Big Jim, which sounds wifey to me. The [bonus verse](http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts) from the [bobdylan.com](http://bobdylan.com) website features the lines _Lily’s arms were locked around the man that she dearly loved to touch She forgot all about the man she couldn’t stand who hounded her so much_ and that sounds like the thoughts of a mistress, not a wife. There’s also the description of Lily: _She’d come away from a broken home, had lots of strange affairs With men in every walk of life which took her everywhere_ which sounds like the memories of a mistress. The only semi-convincing line is _It was known all around that Lily had Jim’s ring_ and really that sounds like a married man’s promise to a mistress. It sounds like an ill-kept secret. An affair, not a marriage. The lines about Rosemary looking like a queen without a crown, and being tired of playing the role of Big Jim’s wife, sound like evidence of a marriage – not evidence against a marriage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dylans-lily-rosemary-and-the-jack-of-hearts-a-discussion/490460.md?page=3)