I think you misunderstood me. On what do you base your assertion that there is a group of cells that moves toward the surface of the brain during the child’s development, and which is further below the surface in children with severe dyslexia? I have to admit that I have never heard of any such group of cells, and would like a cite showing that they actually exist.
Why not? And why would gravity be involved at all? When a child starts teething, teeth both rise from the lower gums, as well as lowering from the upper gums. This demonstrates that structures in the body have no need of gravity to assist them in moving around. So even if this group of cells does exist (which I’d prefer to have a cite for), there’s still no reason to suspect that gravity has anything to do with it. In fact, I already told you why gravity would have no effect at all on cells in the brain (since gravity has no effect on other items in the brain which are at a different density than the rest of the brain matter, and a difference in density is the only way that gravity can make objects in a fluid environment move upward).
What about people who sleep on their backs?
This is the major flaw in your “theory”. People spend more time awake than asleep, even as fairly young children. Thus these cells, were it possible for them to move around influenced by gravity in the first place (which I have demonstrated is a very suspect hypothesis), would spend more time rising to the top of the head than to either side.
I’m off to bed now, but I’ll check back in tomorrow.
No, cells do not rise like bubbles or sink like rocks. Cell migration is controlled by a host of factors, trophic substances, glial scaffolding, concentrations of various substances, and on and on, but not by geotropism or by density.
No, cells do not stay below in the brains of dyslexics.
No, there is no pattern of handedness different in dyslexics than in the normal reading population. But there is a difficulty in telling right from left.
There are differences in cerebellar functioning and in what parts of the brain become activated during the reading process.
As to the number of connections between neurons … the general brain developmental strategy is to have an early period of overgrowth, often driven by experience in critical or sensitive periods, followed by a period of pruning, also driven by experience (those used are preserved and those not used are pruned.) Problems can result from interference with either process. Some forms of autism, for example, are felt to be related to a lack of the normal pruning process. But dyslexia has not been associated with these micropathologic findings.
You say,-- On what do you base your assertion that there is a group of cells that moves toward the surface of the brain during the child’s development, and which is further below the surface in children with severe dyslexia?
I say, —I was told this by a dyslexic organization a long time ago and did not save the web site address, but I feel sure it is correct. If you want to know more, go to a dyslexic site and ask.
You say,–Why not? And why would gravity be involved at all?
I reply,–Do even doctors understand all within the human body? Maybe those cells have air encapsulated, that is rich in oxygen and it is replenished in ways we know nothing about. Of course, that is speculation. I’m just saying, doctors have said, they just don’t know. It is also fact, that those cells rise to the top and since they can’t jump there, the only way for them to get there is to rise to the surface with time and the proper head placement, for at least enough time. I simply offer new thinking on the subject, as I have on disease mutation, heat related illness, medical research issues, having to do with testing blood in a different fashion from the spin method, metalurgy and many other things. All this and I do not even have a college degree. I did however, have a mother that taught me common sense medicine since I was old enough to speak and understand. I also proofread all her medical dictation since I was 7 to the age of 13 or 14. I also have practical knowledge and experience in quite a few fields. I speak on philosophy, psychology and more. Go to the thread about testing all of one state for mental illness and look at what I wrote and then ask yourself why, no one could answer to what I wrote.
I am not a know it all, but I do have many questions and many of my own answers. I don’t depend on other web sites to answer for me or offer my arguements for me.
You say,–No, cells do not rise like bubbles or sink like rocks. Cell migration is controlled by a host of factors, trophic substances, glial scaffolding, concentrations of various substances, and on and on, but not by geotropism or by density.
I don’t believe you are a specialist in this field from another thread about testing an entire state for mental illness and I noticed, that you chose not to say a word about all that I presented on that thread and that you just kept talking about the same ignorance offered there.
As to what you offer on glial scaffolding or geotropisim, that makes good sense, but you did not answer to wheather or not those cells may or may not control balance, or if as the cells rise, wheather or not the brains connections and specific destinations of those connections are influenced by the rise and timing of those cells as I believe they control balance. You also did not reply to wheather or not those cells are on the left side of the brain for right handed children and vice versa for the left handed child.
Furthermore doc, you cannot say for a certainteed fact, that either or both, gleal scaffolding and geotropisim don’t have to have body positioning as part of the equation, nor can you guarantee, that body position cannot work against one or both. While I feel certain both of those exist, that does not prove the entire equation.
Webmd is a fairly reputable site, and they say that the cause of dyslexia is unknown, although it appears to be genetic. Your assertion that it is caused by sleeping on the wrong side would make it environmental rather than genetic. And, honestly, your answer of “I was told this by a dyslexic organization a long time ago” doesn’t carry much weight. I’ll take the opinion of a reputable medical site over the opinion of some dyslexia organization whose name you can’t even remember, and which may or may not be reputable at all.
No kidding. I’ve already shown that differeing density (such as that which would be cause by “air encapsulation”) would have no effect, though.
You have yet to show that these cells even exist. I contend that they do not. Please give a cite other than “somebody once told me so, but I don’t remember who it was or why you should believe them”.
I’ve already debunked that. For one thing, because people spend more time standing and sitting than lying down, these fictional cells would rise to the top-center of the head, and thus lying on any particular side would have no effect whatsoever. For another, I have shown that teeth migrate to their destination both with and against gravity, thus if these fictional cells did exist (which you have failed to demonstrate, other than by saying, in essence, “someone once told me so”) they would not have to be affected by gravity at all. In other words, rising against gravity would not be “the only way for them to get there”, as you put it.
There’s a difference between “no one could” and “no one wanted to”. Besides, that has nothing at all to do with this thread.
But you should depend on other websites to verify your claims when your facts are in question. Your entire premise is based on these cells rising in the brain, yet you have not demonstrated with any believability that these cells even exist. Even so, I have given numerous reasons why sleeping on one particular side would not necessarily have any effect on these supposed cells, including the fact that objects of differing density have been demonstrated to not migrate through the brain, and the fact that, were such migration to occur, the cells would end up in the center of the top of the head, and not on any particular side.
Would you like to actually refute any of that, or, better yet back up your claims about these cells existing and being the cause for dyslexia?
To start off with, each site I have gone to, states it does not know the causes of dyslexia and not only that, but each site is selling something. I have typed in at each site, severest form of dyslexia and nothing comes up. I guess they can’t sell them something.
A perfect example, in a parallel situation, would be the thread about psychiatry for a whole state and how each person posting after what I said, could not challenge me, so they decided, that there was no money cure or money bandaid, so they just waltzed over it. Most of the time, when people cannot answer, they merely do not answer. If you believe there is nothing to my words on that thread, I would dare you to counter what I said. I drew the parallels to that thread, because the doc on this thread decided to answer to what he could, but not all the questions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You say,–Your assertion that it is caused by sleeping on the wrong side would make it environmental rather than genetic. -
Every site claims they don’t know, but they are ready to sell you something and when I type in severest forms of dyslexia, --nothing. I guess if they can’t sell you something, its not worth their time.
LOL, everytime in the past, when someone can’t or won’t answer, they usually hide behind the,–it’s not worth answering. LOL
Your repetition without understanding is getting boring, I have already answered you several times and you are unable to comprehend, so I will wait to hear from someone that fully comprehends all the ramifications. ALL OF THEM, as well as someone that will answer point and counterpoint. While I could be partially wrong, there is just as much chance that I am partially correct. I search for the truth and do not give such weak answers as to,–I didn’t want to answer, because there was nothing to what you said. NONSENSE. Go talk to someone else that wants their time wasted. I’m done with you.
While gleal scaffolding would seem the best, you have yet to rule out geotropic causation in this instance or speak to body position and the triggering mechanisims, along with quite a few other things I brought up, such as, are the cells for the right handed person starting out under the right hemisphere and are the cells spoken of for the left handed child, under the left side of the brain, as part of all I pose? If they do, this in itself would favor left hemisphere dominance and right hemisphere dominance and it would also support my theory on balance to a degree, unless you can debunk that.
If those cells are controlled by geotropic influences and that influence is heat and heat rises, at all times, with the child in the opposing position in sleep and sedation is part of the triggering mechanisim, maybe you can see that those cells would not migrate, because they would be in a position to be stopped, if the cells for right and left hemisphere are on opposing sides for opposing handedness and IF, the mother was opposing handed to the child.
I don’t know if any serious study was ever published on this, but I am convinced that the above conclusion is wrong because I see the evidence in my own family. My mother was left handed, I am left handed, one of my children is left handed and one of my children who died at a very young age was left handed. Furthermore two close relatives of my mother are /were left handed. This then only being the information of present generations. I’m convinced I can dig up many more examples when I would go looking.
It is typing without looking at your keyboard = I look only at the screen. That helps a lot in keeping Dyslex in a coma, because there is no direct connection between what my fingers do and what my eyes see. = My fingers are conditioned to hit the letters my knowledge of the language wants to appear on the screen while probably my brain is mixing things up (and does when I am involved in pure handwriting). This trick can make me dizzy sometimes and even to a point of causing nausea (it now does make me dizzy, for example) and it is not always working as I expect it should. Reading can cause the same symptoms, especially a language like this one (also because I am not fluent enough in it to rely on the guessing game).
In my country and other Islamic nations/societies the emphasis on the use of the right hand for certain tasks is cultural and often people connect this also with religion/superstition. I don’t think there is any “force” needed to grow up in your culture and religion, you simply are part of it since you are in the craddle.
My mother on the other hand was EU citizen and born and raised in her country. She was very much forced to use her right hand for everything, just like her relative was forced to do this. That was before people started to realize that being left-handed was something natural and that going against it could cause the children some problems.
I would ask you to show me one country where left handed people are not facing certain difficulties even when it comes to the most simple tasks in every day life. Ask anyone who is left handed if in his country everything is designed and constructed for left and right handed both and which group is by far the favoured one.
It seems to me that the eye trouble is the cause of all of this. Furthermore: many young children write letters “wrong” and have trouble with coordination until they are a bit older. My daughter showed the same “symptoms” you describe at that age and she is not dyslexic at all. I think you panicked a bit too early and went looking for things that aren’t there.
I would rather suggest that while learning how to deal with the handicap, we develop ways to connect things that are by our nature disconnected.
I don’t think my headaches are a result of “overdeveloped” connections. I think they are the result of a sort of by nature caused “disconnections” that I must try to bypass.
This finally explains everything…
No, I think not “inverse” but I see/perceive/interprete other things then what should be obvious at first sight.
I agree that it asks a lot of work and discipline to bypass this as good as possible. It didn’t stop me for learning a lot of languages though. If you need somehting to get at the goal you have set for yourself , you go for it and you do what is necessary. (I admit to have tortured quite a few books and other items that didn’t survive undamaged my frustration-throwing-with-whatever-under-my-hand at whatever in sight.)
I think you make the wrong connection between eye problems and dyslexia. I wear reading glasses since I was little and I wear other reading glasses for PC work. It has nothing to do with my dyslexia but with an inborn eye problem (that was partially corrected by an operation when I was still a baby.)
When I get dizzy upto nausea from reading while typing or simply readign, this has nothing to do with my eye problem. It has to do with the simpple fact that my dyslexic brain can’t follow the speed of the information I feed it and which it has to puzzle out bypassing brother Dyslex.
I doubt that being creative or not has something to do with being dyslexic. In my experience dyslexic people have a natural gift for skills where you must read plans or schemes instead of reading texts. This has nothing to do with being creative or not. Being left handed on the other hand forces you to be creative in many aspects.
I don’t think you have offered enough convincing evidence that your idea about cell migration – if this exists - has even remotely a connection with the causes of dyslexia.
On the other hand, if it is true that you that there are no studies done about what you describe under “a favoured side of sleep” then this is an interesting issue, but not to bring it in connection with dyslexia as you try to do.
You then came up with this example:
My mother was left handed. So in your idea she must have slept on her “favoured side” when she was pregnant, wich then was also mine since I am also left handed.
Your whole idea on migrating brain cells also doesn’t take into account that a foetus moves around a lot and this constantly. You also don’t take into account that it comes and stasy in a position (normally) with the head down for several weeks by the end of the pregnancy.
I think they are on the right track. Although not necessarily from parent to child (non of my parents was dyslexic).
Very nice Aldebaran, I will be going to work, but I will answer you completely, later. I hope you have a great day. I would also say to you, that you might try to cover one eye while blind typing, just to see if you can last longer and or, if it creates as much of a problem for you, as when using both eyes. Just a suggestion.
I’m only repeating because you keep ignoring the issues I’ve brought up. If you’d just respond to my concerns about your hypothesis, I wouldn’t have to keep repeating myself.
Not at all. You claim that the positioning of the head during sleep has some effect on these hypothesized cells rising to a particular side of the brain. I have countered with the following:[ul][li]Objects of differing densities in the brain do not rise or sink. I have given a concrete example. Can you contest that fact?[/li][li]Any object in the brain that moved in a direction counter to the pull of gravity would move to the location that is most often upright. Since normal people spend more time awake than asleep, that would end up being the top of the head, not one side or the other. Can you contest that fact?[/ul]Those two items, alone, destroy your hypothesis completely. The physics of the situation run completely counter to what you are claiming happens. Can you refute either of my points? Will you actually engage me in this argument, or will you do what you have done for the rest of this thread and completely ignore any facts that get in the way of your pet hypothesis?[/li]
I see, so when you’re losing a debate, your reaction is to hold your fingers in your ears and say “la la la I can’t heeeeaaaar you!”, is that it? Actually, I wouldn’t even call this “losing a debate”, because you have, thus far, not even been really debating.
Worst of all, you have yet to even provide a shred of evidence, other than “someone once told me so”, that this layer of cells even exists. Since every single source I’ve seen makes no mention at all of these supposed cells, I must assume that this layer of cells does not exist, until you can provide some sort of cite that claims otherwise.
So what will you do now? Will you ignore me, as you claimed you would, or will you actually address the factors that I mentioned that would cause your theory not to work, and show how my reasoning is flawed? If you are right, then I must be wrong, and it must be possible to show how I am wrong, to show how my reasoning is fallacious. If you cannot do so, I must assume that you are conceding defeat.
P.S. You should really learn how to quote correctly on this message board. This link explains how to use vBCode to quote. Correct quoting would make your responses much easier to read.
[QUOTE=Aldebaran]
I don’t know if any serious study was ever published on this, but I am convinced that the above conclusion is wrong because I see the evidence in my own family. My mother was left handed, I am left handed, one of my children is left handed and one of my children who died at a very young age was left handed. Furthermore two close relatives of my mother are /were left handed. This then only being the information of present generations. I’m convinced I can dig up many more examples when I would go [looking.]
Was your dad right handed?
It is typing without looking at your keyboard = I look only at the screen. That helps a lot in keeping Dyslex in a coma, because there is no direct connection between what my fingers do and what my eyes see. = My fingers are conditioned to hit the letters my knowledge of the language wants to appear on the screen while probably my brain is mixing things up (and does when I am involved in pure handwriting). This trick can make me dizzy sometimes and even to a point of causing nausea (it now does make me dizzy, for example) and it is not always working as I expect it should. Reading can cause the same symptoms, especially a language like this one (also because I am not fluent enough in it to rely on the guessing game).
Ah, thanks.
In my country and other Islamic nations/societies the emphasis on the use of the right hand for certain tasks is cultural and often people connect this also with religion/superstition. I don’t think there is any “force” needed to grow up in your culture and religion, you simply are part of it since you are in the craddle.
My mother on the other hand was EU citizen and born and raised in her country. She was very much forced to use her right hand for everything, just like her relative was forced to do this. That was before people started to realize that being left-handed was something natural and that going against it could cause the children some problems.
I would ask you to show me one country where left handed people are not facing certain difficulties even when it comes to the most simple tasks in every day life. Ask anyone who is left handed if in his country everything is designed and constructed for left and right handed both and which group is by far the favoured one.
If your mother was forced to use her right hand, it would be difficult at best, to say it did not cause any problems.
It seems to me that the eye trouble is the cause of all of this. Furthermore: many young children write letters “wrong” and have trouble with coordination until they are a bit older. My daughter showed the same “symptoms” you describe at that age and she is not dyslexic at all. I think you panicked a bit too early and went looking for things that aren’t there.
Yes, I agree, but as I wrote the piece in that manner origionally, I still show it.
I would rather suggest that while learning how to deal with the handicap, we develop ways to connect things that are by our nature disconnected.
If dyslexics see and write things backwards, I would call that, inverse, so on that point, I would not call that a disconnect, even though, you struggle with it and I do not. I say that, because that is how the reasearchers have described it.
I don’t think my headaches are a result of “overdeveloped” connections. I think they are the result of a sort of by nature caused “disconnections” that I must try to bypass.
It may be, that in a certain way, you are correct, by calling it a disconnect, because you have to undo what you see and sort of redo it, in its proper order. Hmmm, interresting, thanks.
I think you make the wrong connection between eye problems and dyslexia. I wear reading glasses since I was little and I wear other reading glasses for PC work. It has nothing to do with my dyslexia but with an inborn eye problem (that was partially corrected by an operation when I was still a baby.)
That’s possible in your case, but many cases of dyslexia have different traits, from the dyslexics I have spoken with.
I don’t think you have offered enough convincing evidence that your idea about cell migration – if this exists - has even remotely a connection with the causes of dyslexia.
That’s one of the good things about this country, sometimes we can disagree and it’s ok.
On the other hand, if it is true that you that there are no studies done about what you describe under “a favoured side of sleep” then this is an interesting issue, but not to bring it in connection with dyslexia as you try to do.
You can never tell.
My mother was left handed. So in your idea she must have slept on her “favoured side” when she was pregnant, wich then was also mine since I am also left handed.
Your whole idea on migrating brain cells also doesn’t take into account that a foetus moves around a lot and this constantly. You also don’t take into account that it comes and stasy in a position (normally) with the head down for several weeks by the end of the pregnancy.
While your mother was a lefty, she was also taught to be a righty. What that may have caused to her without knowing, neither you pr I will ever know and it is likely, she never will either. It could have affected which side she felt more comfortable to sleep on, depending on the amount of physical activity and the stress placed on the opposing sides of the body.
I don’t think it caused any problems, the more since she still used her left hand by preference for everything possible. I think on the contrary that she was able to use both right and left hand for things like writing and eating etc…
I also am under the impression that everyone who is left handed by nature has to learn to do that for certain tasks.
I never heard or saw this called “inverse”. You can also name it disorientated or other-orientated, yet that is not the same as “inverse” to me.
I think I was not clear about this. I do not need to “undo” and then “redo”.
When I read a word I first make it easy on myself and guess what it represents = I see the picture. That can be more then one thing but of course it is often the right thing at once.
If not, I see that soon enough because the rest of the sentence makes no sense (or the final outcome when putting it in its context).
Then I use an other method = make the disconnection. The mental pictures from item/object I thought the letters represent must go. I look again and bann all other impressions but the letters I see. Then I start to see letters arranged in a certain pattern and try, relying on my experience, to make the connection with what they stand for, just like everyone else who sees a written word.
I don’t know if this is clear enough to see what I mean and of course this whole process goes very quickly and by now mostly without me having to think through or about it all the time. I was teached how it works when I was a child and you get better in time.
Yet any word that has no direct link with something you can picture it is still more difficult then those who do. That is in my view also a reason why Dyslex shows up when I am tired, distracted, must read a lot or write a lot, swithc between languages (especially then) = when my ocncentration starts to fall apart.
On the other hand it is also a very good tool for me to have many languages because while doing the guessing I also picture the pattern of words (= their picture as a set of letters in a certain order) and their meaning in other languages to compare with the ones I see, and use this to get to the right interpretation.
These are the things I found and use to get Dyslex in a coma = a personal method that most probably is of no use for someone else. Dyslexia has many different individual faces.
I think once she became adult she got completely rid of all that outside influence and I also think that when you sleep, you follow your subconscience. Which then certainly told her that she was lefthanded.
[quote]
I never heard or saw this called “inverse”. You can also name it disorientated or other-orientated, yet that is not the same as “inverse” to me.
[quote/]
Inverse means, in reverse, according to the dictionary.
Now that sounds very interresting, but I have never heard launguage expressed in such a way. In other words, if you see the word bus, you picture a bus in your minds eye???
Ah, now that makes sense to me, because many times, I will not understand a words meaning, until I read and comprehend the rest of the sentence. If I still am not sure, I look up the word to be sure.
Then I use an other method = make the disconnection. The mental pictures from item/object I thought the letters represent must go. I look again and bann all other impressions but the letters I see. Then I start to see letters arranged in a certain pattern and try, relying on my experience, to make the connection with what they stand for, just like everyone else who sees a written word.
I understand, but I could not do such, as I was never pressed to. What you explain takes great creativity and concentration, as I see it, especially with more than one language.
Because you have to do so much and in so many different ways, is exactly the reason some dyslexics become so creative.
While that may be true, it would depend on what kind of physical labor, how much and many other things, because a person that is normally left handed, taughtt to be right handed, must switch the power side of the body to the balance and the balance side to the power side of the body, which will demand grat concentration and force of will, but it also creates problems in many other things within the body and mind, as well as how someone sees everything. IMHO of course, but common sense also seems to dictate such.
Thanks for the quote tips, I tried them here, we will see if I got it right.
Yes Tony, these are my ideas. Just think, as far as I know, everybody has a stronger hand, arm and leg and they are all on one side of the body. For me, it is the right side of my body, just as I am right eye dominant.
My friends were all the same, except for a left handed friend and he was doninant on his left. Dominant, being the strongest side.
When you kick a ball and you are right side dominant, that person will plant and balance on his left side as his right or power side kicks the ball. The right side is usually bigger, stronger, faster and more coordinated than the left.
If you run and jump, a right handed person will plant and balance with the left side of the body and at the last second, snap the power of the right side of his body, to propel him as far as possible.
A right handed fighter will present the left side of his body to the opponent and when he wishes to punch with power, he will snap the right side of his body, arm and fist, at the same moment and deliver the power, while the left stabalizes his body and balance, if he is any good.
A pole vaulter that is right handed, will plant his left foot and kick with his right.
The left side of his body is powerful, but the right is always behind the left side and always delivers the most power.
Many people switch their dominant side depending on the activity, though. My brother, for instance, is left handed. He kicks a ball with his left foot, eats and writes with his left hand, etc. However, he throws a Frisbee and bats at baseball like a right-hander. He’s tried reversing that, and simply cannot do it with his left hand, no matter how much he practices.
I’m right handed and right footed, yet I am left eye dominant.
How do the above examples fit in with your hypothesis?
I have heard of many such cases and that could be very natural, depending. To understand body mechanics in depth, it would take a wide ranging study, but I also believe, that much could be learned from such, just as the study of dyslexia, its many forms and complexities, could teach us all, so much.
