# E-fucking-nough. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434 "2003-02-16T12:42:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/21 "2003-02-16T15:26:57Z")
Yes to both. The people in the military are probably deeply disturbed by the suffering war causes. They witness first hand how devastating war can be. So no, they should not feel guilty because they are not guilty. Also, if killing occurs during war, it is not murder. ---
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/22 "2003-02-16T15:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nothingnobody \* > \*\*are they not murderers because murder by defintion is the unlawful killing of another human being, or are they not murderes because we wouldn’t want to make them feel guilty for killing thousands of people with the sanction of the US government? \*\* My response was to this post. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/23 "2003-02-16T15:38:09Z")
nothingnobody: I refer you to Coldfire’s OP in this very thread. At any rate, I am seriously impressed by how you managed to have your head buried in the sand and inserted up your ass _at the same time!_ Truly amazing. ---
**Author:** ![nothingnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@nothingnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nothingnobody)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/24 "2003-02-16T15:47:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*nothingnobody: I refer you to Coldfire’s OP in this very thread. > > At any rate, I am seriously impressed by how you managed to have your head buried in the sand and inserted up your ass _at the same time!_ Truly amazing. \*\* it was a legitimate question that does not reflect my sentiments on any issue. interesting that you reacted so strongly to it, though… and in a thread where the OP asks for a bit of tolerance… haha… ---
**Author:** ![nothingnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@nothingnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nothingnobody)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/25 "2003-02-16T15:54:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jacksen9 \* > \*\*Yes to both. The people in the military are probably deeply disturbed by the suffering war causes. They witness first hand how devastating war can be. So no, they should not feel guilty because they are not guilty. > Also, if killing occurs during war, it is not murder. \*\* let’s assume someone in the US military purposely targets civilians… it is then that the government sanctioned killing becomes murder. if a person believes a particular war was unjust and that particular war resulted in the death of civilians(what war doesn’t?) then i don’t see why ‘murderer’ is not an accurate term, even if it is obviously bound and probably intended to offend. i think anyone from the U.S. should be obliged to at the very least refrain from calling people who risked their lives for us murderers… but then again, this is not the U.S., this is the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/26 "2003-02-16T15:55:23Z")
Thespos, you said it better than I ever could. All we need to do is accept that we don’t know everything, and keep that in mind. All theories we put forth are inconclusive until we know more, either from the weapons inspections, or from intelligence information. We can’t say _for certain_ that war is the only option, or that we should not go to war. It’s mere opinions: no one has all the facts. Emotions should be kept in check. ---
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/27 "2003-02-16T16:06:04Z")
War is hell. I am not knowledgeable about any “just” war. I am glad I do not have these decisions to make. Innocent people will die in any war. I think war is a bad choice among worse choices. I support our service men and women. I think it is a very good thing that world leaders are closely scrutinized and their decisions are considered critically. I believe the U.S. has the right set of intentions. Whether or not we are executing the best policies is a question that I lack the ability to answer. I am uninformed on too many foreign policy issues. I watch CSPAN and CNN. I am not sure I have a handle on the truth… the total truth. I trust the leadership of this country. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/28 "2003-02-16T16:45:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jacksen9 \ ***Also, if killing occurs during war, it is not murder** Actually, this isn’t necessarily true. If I walk up to a defenseless non-combatant in a war zone and shoot him/her, then yes, it’s murder. But collateral damage, human shields, and the hopefully rare errant munition are not. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nothingnobody \*\*\*let’s assume someone in the US military purposely targets civilians… it is then that the government sanctioned killing becomes murder. if a person believes a particular war was unjust and that particular war resulted in the death of civilians(what war doesn’t?) then i don’t see why ‘murderer’ is not an accurate term, even if it is obviously bound and probably intended to offend. i think anyone from the U.S. should be obliged to at the very least refrain from calling people who risked their lives for us murderers… but then again, this is not the U.S., this is the Internet. \*\* I’m not sure why you’re hung up on this. For starters, why would you make the assumption (that “someone” in the military targets civilians) in the first place? With the exception of Psychological Operations, it’s not true (and this isn’t my opinion, it’s the truth). Secondly, while campaigns are carried out by the military, the objectives are given to us by the government. So, assuming that the military does _not_ kinetically target civilians, then anyone who looks at civilian casualties from a war he/she doesn’t agree with or considers unlawful needs to place the blame with their elected representatives. Not the military. ---
**Author:** ![nothingnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@nothingnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nothingnobody)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/29 "2003-02-16T17:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flyboy88 \* > \*\* I’m not sure why you’re hung up on this. For starters, why would you make the assumption (that “someone” in the military targets civilians) in the first place? With the exception of Psychological Operations, it’s not true (and this isn’t my opinion, it’s the truth). Secondly, while campaigns are carried out by the military, the objectives are given to us by the government. So, assuming that the military does _not_ kinetically target civilians, then anyone who looks at civilian casualties from a war he/she doesn’t agree with or considers unlawful needs to place the blame with their elected representatives. Not the military. \*\* not really hung up on it… but from the perspective of a child in Iraq who’s father will die in the coming war the U.S. soldiers are murderers… and also to those people that can empathize with such a child. your or i may agree that they were ‘just following orders’ but i wouldn’t expect a non-american to have the same opinion. and since this board is not a homogenous entity consisting of only Americans i definitely don’t expect that tempers won’t flare and unduly offensive words won’t be used… especially in ‘The BBQ Pit’ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Haywood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Haywood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haywood)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/30 "2003-02-16T17:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nothingnobody \* > \*\*not really hung up on it… but from the perspective of a child in Iraq who’s father will die in the coming war the U.S. soldiers are murderers… and also to those people that can empathize with such a child. your or i may agree that they were ‘just following orders’ but i wouldn’t expect a non-american to have the same opinion. and since this board is not a homogenous entity consisting of only Americans i definitely don’t expect that tempers won’t flare and unduly offensive words won’t be used… especially in ‘The BBQ Pit’ 🙂 \*\* Coldie, is it time to open a can of moderator whoop ass? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/31 "2003-02-16T17:23:32Z")
Why? Because he is suggesting an Iraqi child will consider the American soldier that shot his father a murderer? I don’t think that’s too farfetched, really. Such is war. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/32 "2003-02-16T17:24:28Z")
**nothingnobody** , I see where you’re coming from, but what you’re describing is, to me, an emotionally-based charge. I’m pretty sure the world at large will be able to see past it. I still don’t see how a rational person can come to the conclusion that our military is made up of murderers (granted, if things go seriously wrong and there winds up being a huge amount of collateral damage civilian casualties during a protracted ground war, I’ll be able to see it). I also think that if we do quickly clean house in Iraq, the majority of Iraqis will celebrate their liberation. If this happens, I think it’ll greatly affect the world’s opinion as to our military’s actions there. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/33 "2003-02-16T17:27:03Z")
nothingnobody just compared American Servicemembers with Nazi war criminals. It wasn’t just saying that the Iraqi child would consider the American Soldier a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/34 "2003-02-16T17:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*nothingnobody just compared American Servicemembers with Nazi war criminals. It wasn’t just saying that the Iraqi child would consider the American Soldier a murderer. \*\* Huh? Where did that happen? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/35 "2003-02-16T17:32:17Z")
Why, Coldfire; that happened when he made the “just following orders” comment. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/36 "2003-02-16T17:35:22Z")
Sheeeeeeeyit. It’s not like he typed _" Befehl ist Befehl"_, **Monty**. I think you’re being overly sensitive here. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/37 "2003-02-16T17:44:05Z")
Hey, it might’ve been unintentional. I really don’t see how anyone in the 21st Century can not realize that was the excuse many of the war criminals used for their actions, though. Anyway, the comment alone displays a serious ignorance of the way the US military works. Our Servicemembers are required to not obey unlawful orders, such as orders to target & kill civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/38 "2003-02-16T17:57:15Z")
Why don’t we assume the US military does **not** target civilians? That is a **lot** closer to reality. I understand you don’t like war, psychotics excepted, few do. Instead of bewailing the situation, why not come up with an alternative? Something that doesn’t assume Saddam has suddenly reformed and has a chance of working in the real world. I personally believe that Saddam and his family/cronies need to go. Giving him a slap on the wrist and going back to business-as-usual is too much like “Peace in our time.” Regards. Testy ---
**Author:** ![nothingnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@nothingnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nothingnobody)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/39 "2003-02-16T18:00:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flyboy88 \* > \*\ ***nothingnobody** , I see where you’re coming from, but what you’re describing is, to me, an emotionally-based charge. I’m pretty sure the world at large will be able to see past it. I still don’t see how a rational person can come to the conclusion that our military is made up of murderers (granted, if things go seriously wrong and there winds up being a huge amount of collateral damage civilian casualties during a protracted ground war, I’ll be able to see it). > > I also think that if we do quickly clean house in Iraq, the majority of Iraqis will celebrate their liberation. If this happens, I think it’ll greatly affect the world’s opinion as to our military’s actions there. \*\* so many ifs… ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/40 "2003-02-16T18:04:22Z")
Yep. Are you saying everything in life is a sure thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434.md?page=3)