# E-fucking-nough. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434 "2003-02-16T12:42:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nothingnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@nothingnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nothingnobody)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/41 "2003-02-16T18:28:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Hey, it might’ve been unintentional. I really don’t see how anyone in the 21st Century can not realize that was the excuse many of the war criminals used for their actions, though. > > Anyway, the comment alone displays a serious ignorance of the way the US military works. Our Servicemembers are required to not obey unlawful orders, such as orders to target & kill civilians. \*\* civilians don’t die in wars, or what? do you think some kid in Iraq is going to care if it was an accident or not? that’s what i’m trying to say. we are breeding more hatred for ourselves. i really don’t understand why we are the police of the world… it seems like we would be much better off worrying about the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/42 "2003-02-16T18:31:49Z")
Well, I’d say a couple of dozen European nations also opting for a diplomatic route are an indication that you’re not alone in thinking the US shouldn’t be the police of the world, **nothingnobody**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![japatlgt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@japatlgt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/japatlgt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/43 "2003-02-16T18:49:31Z")
**Coldfire** , my thanks for making a sanity adjustment to this issue. It really is tough stuff and very hard to understand the different perspectives. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/44 "2003-02-16T19:29:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Lib, I know what you’re referring to, but: calling US military “murderers” is akin to calling all lawyers “ambulance chasers”. To me, it is more like calling all lawyers “rapists.” I can deal with “ambulance chaser.” You try it, ambulances are fast. They drive fast and take chances. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/45 "2003-02-16T22:10:03Z")
I drive to work in Amsterdam every morning, Beagle. I know about taking chances. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/46 "2003-02-16T22:17:07Z")
I don’t see why we should pay any attention to **Coldfire** here; after all, he hasn’t threatened to leave the boards forever, os he can’t possibly mean what he says. ---
**Author:** ![samarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@samarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samarm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/47 "2003-02-16T22:17:31Z")
I thought everyone rides bikes in Amsterdam? And you all wear clogs. And grow tulips. OK, I’ll stop now, before CF starts pulling on his mod jacket 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/48 "2003-02-16T22:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > All we need to do is accept that we don’t know everything, and keep that in mind. All theories we put forth are inconclusive until we know more, either from the weapons inspections, or from intelligence information. We can’t say _for certain_ that war is the only option, or that we should not go to war. It’s mere opinions: no one has all the facts. Emotions should be kept in check. “Emotions should be kept in check”? 😕 Not to put too fine a point on it, Coldie, but we’re talking about a war. You know, death and destruction, international crisis, human calamity of the first order? And you want people to calm down? Good luck with that one. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/49 "2003-02-16T22:33:29Z")
Gee, nothing, and exactly WTF did I ever say that civilians don’t die in wars? ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/50 "2003-02-16T23:07:46Z")
I have been reading dozens of posts for days about this and I still have no idea which side to take. We lack the facts to make anything more than educated guesses. Perhaps we should just put Iraq on the back burner for a week to let us cool off and gather more information. ---
**Author:** ![nothingnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@nothingnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nothingnobody)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/51 "2003-02-17T00:25:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Gee, nothing, and exactly WTF did I ever say that civilians don’t die in wars? \*\* Gee, Monty, WTF did I make a reference to Nazi war criminals? look. like i said, a kid in Iraq will not care and probably not even be aware of the laws of war, so whether or not his parents were legally killed(i’m going to assume that it’s always unintentional) is totally irrelevant to him. we will destroy ourselves if we continue this way. we complain of anti-americanism but we sow it’s seeds with blatant acts of aggression like this war. and before you call me one of the names mentioned in the OP you should know i am neither pro-war or anti-war. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/52 "2003-02-17T00:32:40Z")
Fair’s fair, **Monty** - **nothingnobody** is making a good point. You may disagree with it, or assess it differently, but he’s not putting words in your mouth. You’re choosing to make it _seem_ like he is. Welcome aboard, **nothingnobody** - you’ll be alright. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![nothingnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@nothingnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nothingnobody)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/53 "2003-02-17T00:37:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Fair’s fair, **Monty** - **nothingnobody** is making a good point. You may disagree with it, or assess it differently, but he’s not putting words in your mouth. You’re choosing to make it _seem_ like he is. > > Welcome aboard, **nothingnobody** - you’ll be alright. 🙂 \*\* thanks 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/54 "2003-02-17T00:43:51Z")
I don’t know where the hell “warmongerers” came from, but it’s not a real word. It’s “warmongers”. An ambulance chaser is a _type_ of lawyer, i.e. one too incompetent to get “honest” work. Generally looked down on by more skilled lawyers. “Murder”, despite what the pro-life nutjobs have been screaming in your ears for the past three decades, is a very specific legal term. It means the illegal killing of a human being with malice aforethought. In regards to the impending war in Iraq, what constitutes a human being that’s illegal to kill depends on what our military says it is. In any event, enemy casualties do not constitute murder in any way, shape, or form. If innocents get accidentally killed in an attack, that’s not murder, that’s _manslaughter_ (which is still serious, but nowhere near as serious as murder). Of course, there’s a mechanism already in place for prosecuting murder and other military crimes, a court-martial. (You know, I almost never make these nitpicky posts. I don’t know what came over me just now… 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/55 "2003-02-17T00:54:45Z")
Well, I humbly apologise for “warmongerers”, at least. I improve my English everyday, and I thank you for your help in that process. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/56 "2003-02-17T01:10:54Z")
Actually, Coldfire; he’s not making a good point. The expression “just following orders” applied to military is exactly comparing the military to Nazi war criminals. Of course nothingnobody’s going to be okay on these boards. As I said, I don’t think it was intentionally meant that way; however, the expression comes across that way. Here’s an interesting question: say the Iraqi child’s father commits an actual crime and gets the death penalty for it back there in Iraq. Will the child consider the national government to have been a murderer? Anyway, I have no intention now, nor did I have an intention at the outset of this, of calling you any of the names mentioned in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/57 "2003-02-17T01:17:37Z")
Well, that’s a good start. 🙂 As for your question: in a nation where indoctrination and dogma have been the norm for 25 years, I’d expect a child to accept the death of his father at the hands of his own state more easily than at the hands of the state always depicted as the Great Satan. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/58 "2003-02-17T01:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DKW \* > I don’t know where the hell “warmongerers” came from, but it’s not a real word. It’s “warmongers”. [They mong war](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2881552#post2881552). ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/59 "2003-02-17T01:37:43Z")
Hey, stop making fun of the non-native speakers! Oh, wait, Dex is American. Ha! Flame away. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![nothingnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@nothingnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nothingnobody)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434/60 "2003-02-17T02:07:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Actually, Coldfire; he’s not making a good point. The expression “just following orders” applied to military is exactly comparing the military to Nazi war criminals. > > Of course nothingnobody’s going to be okay on these boards. As I said, I don’t think it was intentionally meant that way; however, the expression comes across that way. > > Here’s an interesting question: say the Iraqi child’s father commits an actual crime and gets the death penalty for it back there in Iraq. Will the child consider the national government to have been a murderer? > > Anyway, I have no intention now, nor did I have an intention at the outset of this, of calling you any of the names mentioned in the OP. \*\* i think the actions of Nazis aren’t really representative of the actions of U.S. soldiers… the Nazis knew they were killing innocent people and it was systematic, done with the consent of the government. obviously soldiers who unintentionally kill civilians were just following orders and that is acceptable to those on the side of the victor. i don’t expect people who are in the business of killing eachother to act nobly and always follow the law as it was written. i might accept that civilians are not intentionally targetted out of malevolence, but i cannot accept that civilians do not die needlessly from the indifference of U.S. soldiers. that is human nature, and as far as i am concerned applies to any military anywhere on earth. no doubt the Iraqis despise Saddam Hussein, but how are they supposed to react to America attacking them out of nowhere? i wouldn’t expect that they would be too happy and i wouldn’t expect this to be a ‘nice clean’ war. the fact that they are saturated by propaganda, as Coldfire mentions, does not help the situation. what does the child of a U.S. death row inmate think? it would be interesting to ask one… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/e-fucking-nough/155434.md?page=4)