E=mc2 ??

I think it would be nice, for the benefit of all who are reading this and are still immensely confused, to explain the units that would be used with E=mc^2, in spite of all the purists who keep yelling about how it’s an equation that needs no units and that laypeople should just shut up. (After all, the worst answer to a scientific question, aside form a wrong one, is one that does not answer it.)

An equation such as E=mc^2 can naturally take any units it wants. In the metric system, however, the most likely units to be used are kilograms for mass and meters/second for speed of light. By multiplying these units, one would assume that E was expressed in kilograms-meters^2/second^2.

Such a unit is called the Joule.

Somebody asked what an hour squared was. Of course, hours squared are not real things (after all, I hope we only have only one time dimension to deal with, not two). Hours and seconds are squared not for a geometric or a physical reason, but for a mathematical one. Going back to the Joule, let’s try to understand what this odd unit of energy means.

According to the classical definition, energy is the ability to do work. Work is most simply understood as pushing things, and so it’s logical to measure energy in terms of how much energy you use up pushing (or, in more precise language, accelerating) something.

So you start off with a mass, measured in kilograms. Acceleration is measured by how much speed is increased per every second that passes. A car that goes from 0 to 60 in 6 seconds accelerates by 10 mph per every second. Speed itself is measured in meters traveled per seconds spent traveling, ie meters per second. An important thing to remember is that when a quantity is per another quantity (as in “there are a number of socks per a number of people”), it is understood as division. So going back to physics: speed is expressed in the unit m/s, and acceleration in a unit Speed/s. Via substitution, we get that the acceleration must be expressed in m/s^2. Seconds squared are not squares made of time, but are simply the algebraic end result. Also remember that m in m/s and m in mc^2 mean different things. In one, ‘m’ is an abbreviation for ‘meters’, in the other it is an abbreviation for ‘mass’.

So now we have the mass (in kg), and how much it is accelerated by, or how hard it is pushed, (in m/s^2). Now all we need is to specify how much this mass was pushed. We can either say it was accelerate for a certain amount of time, or for a certain distance. “For” has the mathematical meaning of multiplication (as in “a number of apples sold for a number of dollars each”, the two numbers must be multiplied). So the result is either m*s/s^2 or m^2/s^2. The first gives you an urge to cancel out. However, you cannot do this since you are dealing with units and not merely numbers. This makes the first possibility counter-intuitive and, moreover, not what we are looking for. Therefore, we choose to use acceleration for a certain distance.
So there you have it. kilogram-meter^2/second^2 means a unit of energy, a Joule, corresponding to the energy that is required to accelerate one kilogram of matter by an acceleration of one meter per second per second, for a distance of one meters.

What’s interesting is that E=massc^2 is very similar to the kinetic energy equation, which states KE = massv^2 (where v is the velocity of the mass). In both equations, the energy is expressed by Joules. It is almost as if the energy equivalent of a gram of matter is the kinetic energy of that mass going at c. That is, light is a mass (a photon) going at c, and all the energy it carries, it carries in the form of its kinetic energy. This, however, this is going beyond accepted theory, and a discussion of this idea is beyond what I set out to explain.

Alex, I don’t think anybody told laypeople to shut up. I’m a layperson myself, in fact.

There’s nothing that makes metric units more fundamental' or scientific’ than anything else. We could measure in cubits and Timex beats and be just as valid as meters and seconds.

Trying to dimension equations is like trying to make mathematicians work in plain French: Not only does it miss the point entirely, it introduces completely arbitrary problems.

Yo. To RING, who speaks great truth.

"A vault that contains nuclear weapon will weigh the same both before and after the explosion. "

Yep, but it is spread over a much larger area. And has probably changed color, shape, and state.

-----Paul-----

No, you used carets, like this —> ^

You’re only allowed to use carrots in mathematics if you’re a rabbit engaged in multiplying! :slight_smile:

heh…just noticed this.

what’s happenin’, sum — did they answer your question?

I just wanted to note that there was an article in the NY Times (free registration might be required) recently about a revision to the equation that’s supposed to account for this or that, and indicating a maximum possible momentum for a particle:


       mc[sup]2[/sup]
E = --------
        mc[sup]2[/sup]
     1+-----
         E[sub]p[/sub]


Where E[sub]p[/sub] is the Planck energy. I’m curious what the board’s physicists have to say on this.

IMHO, this (presumably impenetrable) vault would weigh less but be significantly warmer.

The NYTimes caption states:

My question is if this equation was derived from the top-down by saying “the energy has to be less than Planck energy,” or was it derived from the bottom-up by trying to incorporate Planck’s constant into Relativity and seeing where that leads you.

If its the former, then it seems to me that it’s little more than educated guessing, since there could be an unlimited other number of ways to solve the problem of not exceeding Planck energy (and that is already accepting that Planck’s energy is a true upper limit, something that has not yet been directly tested). If it’s the latter, and i know some people are working on that, then it makes it a lot more interesting, for me at least, that this was derived directly from the constants themselves.

If someone could shed some light on this, i’d be very greatful. I’m always fascinated by finding out the true reasons behind an otherwise imposing equation. It lets me understand things much more clearly.

P.S. now that i think about the way E=mc^2 was derived, i can’t imagine a place to stick the Planck constant into.

I’m in the process of being immensely confused, but i’m pretty sure that the KE of the heated-up molecules would indeed contribute to the mass and weight of the vault. Light bouncing around inside should also contribute to the weight, though i’m not sure how. (I know that light interacts with the box by nudging it up and down as it bounces off, and that light going up, out of a gravitational well, should be red shifted as opposed to being blue shifted on its way down. The problem is that doesn’t redshifting merely stretch a lightwave out without decreasing its overall energy and momentum? Or do i have this whole doppler-effect wrong?)

If it’s warmer then energy is escaping, and it will weigh less. If, as I’m positing, the vault does not allow any energy to escape then it will weigh the same.

Think about it in terms of photons. The energy of a photon equals Plancks constant times the frequency. If the light is redshifted then the frequency and hence the energy is lower.

Alex_Dubinsky: **What’s interesting is that E=massc^2 is very similar to the kinetic energy equation, which states KE = massv^2 **

I thought that it was KE = 1/2mv[sup]2[/sup].

I thought of that, but does that mean that the doppler effect doesn’t apply to light? Or that it ends up working out somehow differently? What happens if a pulse of light bounces off a mirrior that is moving towards it? The doppler effect (the way i think i understand it) would compress the wave, giving the pulse a higher color but not changing its overall energy. Thinking of light as a photon and not a wave seems to tell me that momentum and energy would be transfered to the photon from the mirror such that the pulse of light wouldn’t change length, but would merely increase in overall energy and become blue.

Which of these is right?

Not really… Most of it went over my head…

I dont think very good on the weekends so I’ll read it again tomorrow…

Thanx…

I’m not sure what you mean by “Which of these is right” but here’s the story.

The Doppler effect most definitely applies to light. If a pulse of light bounces off a mirror that is moving towards it the light will be blue shifted (frequency increases), gain energy E =hf, gain momentum p = hf/c, and have a shorter wavelength Lambda = c/f

Sum E = mc[sup]2[/sup] is just part of the relativistically correct formula

E[sup]2[/sup] = m[sup]2[/sup]c[sup]4[/sup] + p[sup]2[/sup]c[sup]2[/sup]

E = energy
P = momentum
M = mass

Now if the system is stationary (at rest) then p = 0 and E[sup]2[/sup] = m[sup]2[/sup]c[sup]4[/sup] or E = mc[sup]2[/sup].

What this says is if the system is at rest then the energy of the system equals the mass time the speed of light squared, but it does not say that mass can be converted to energy. Althought if that doesn’t make any sense then just ignore it–most pop science books do.

And yes the sum total of the energy and mass (not matter) is conserved. If you want to go one step further you can say that universally both the mass and energy are individually conserved. But if you don’t see how that can jive with E = mc[sup]2[/sup] then just ignore it also.

just intuitively, I would think the light either loses energy to overcome the gravity well (as mentioned above), or at least has some energy converted to potential energy.

sum, most confusion (at least most of MY confusion) from physics is usually the result of preconceived ideas or visualizations that just aren’t correct to begin with.
people try to shoehorn their square ideas into round holes, and get frustrated.

it’s like that infamous example of the car driving at light speed and switching on it’s headlights.

in order to better understand the equations and ideas of physics, take a close look at the terms involved FIRST (mass, energy, ‘at rest’, etc) and see if you’ve really got a clear handle on them, or if you’re just continuing to use popular misconceptions which will confuse you.

w/physics and math it’s all about definitions.
ps – ring

you seem to be pretty much on top of the physics — major? prof? theoretical physicist working on stargate?

ok…

Thanks, but no, I’m a general manager / plant manager. BSEE and MBA plus many years of studying physics texts as a hobby. Right now I’m at about a masters [sup]++[/sup] level.

The only two Ph.D physicists I know about on this board are Bonzer and Chronos.