# EACHING 'GAY ED' IN THE SCHOOLS? WHAT THE %$#@!!!!!!\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2001, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598 "2001-07-07T16:36:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/21 "2001-07-07T21:50:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrMatrix \* > \*\* > You can’t teach someone to be gay, but you can teach gays and straights about gay issues – what it means to be gay, safer sex, etc. Sex education teaches about sex. Without sex education, people will still have sex. People will not become gay because they are taught gay education any more than European history will make kids European. There is a lot of misunderstanding about homosexuality especially in high schools and I think high school is a very good place to teach about such issues. \*\* I have a hard time taking the OP seriously. I’m really not sure what he means by “Gay Education” in schools. I wouldn’t mind seeing homosexuality included in a normal sex education curriculum. I don’t think it is necessary to have a specific class about homosexuals though. But that’s just me. Maybe I was incredibly blessed but I’m finding that my sex education I got in 5th grade, Colorado Springs, was pretty darn good. They taught me the nuts and bolts of how a male and female body worked when it came to sexuality in an atmosphere that was comfortable and enlightening. I felt free to ask any qestions I had, I only had one, and I think most of the other students did. Of course we seperated the boys from the girls. They did this because having girls present would have been uncomfortable for a lot of guys, I can only imagine the feelings were mutual. I wonder if someone would have an idea to seperate the homosexuals from the straight kids? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/22 "2001-07-07T23:31:24Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* \*\*[li]Teachers should be able to grab kids. For exactly what purpose, I’m not sure.[/li][/QUOTE] \*\* For “uniform sex education,” of course! Anyway, have you noticed that the more conservative and reactionary someone is about sex, the more fascinated and _knowledgeable_ they are with regard to perverse sex practices? Back when Wildest Bill went on his anti-sex ed rant, he started talking about sending kids on field trips to Mexico to see “woman and pony shows.” Now we have NFP ranting about the “Glass Table.” I don’t know what that is, I don’t want to know what that is, but I think it’s very interesting that I’m all for sex ed, gay ed, etc., and I’m a heck of a lot more openminded about diversity than Mr. Neon “all Black people are into gangsta culture” Frying Pan- but which one of us is the expert on the nasty stuff? Why, the conservative, of course! Because he has to, uh, koff koff, know his enemy, or something. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/23 "2001-07-08T00:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrMatrix \* > \*\* > > You can’t teach someone to be gay, but you can teach gays and straights about gay issues \*\* And it doesn’t even have to be in a specific, separate “Gay Education” unit or module in the curriculum but something incorporated -within- the standard lessons on literature, history, etc. – I guess my position on this is that the best approach to such things as “gay ed” AND environmental education AND women’s issues AND race issues AND minority-culture issues AND ethics AND civics AND critical thinking etc. etc. is not to proliferate isolated, self-contained X-number-of-hours units/modules but to seek them out -within- the general curriculum. E.g. don’t say “We will now read a work by a gay author”, but rather assign the book like any other, THEN during the discussion say “Did you know this author was gay? Could you tell by reading it? How does that affect your understanding of the book? etc.” ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/24 "2001-07-08T00:40:54Z")
Just to be clear, nobody except Neon Frying Pan has even brought up gay education classes. Please see my above post about the NEA’s current decision to appoint a task force to find out more about the challenges and problems facing GLBT youth, and to propose some solutions. In other words, what’s got NFP all in a tizzy is that the teacher’s union is recognizing that gay kids face some unique challenges, and they’re looking into seeing what they can do to help. To sum up again, Neon Frying Pan… no class. And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion. Oh, and **DrMatrix** … > [@](#): > > People will not become gay because they are taught gay education any more than European history will make kids European. Wow. Can I take lessons in pithy pointmaking from you? Please? ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/25 "2001-07-08T02:42:25Z")
Here’s a fun game brought to you by the idio…er, folks… at Focus on the Family (run by the Dark Overlord Dr. Dobson). They decided to tackle this NEA issue when the resolution was still up for consideration, in this link: > **[Home](https://familypolicyalliance.com)** > > United for Families They rant and rave about how the NEA is trying to make a “pro-homosexual” curriculum in the school and furthering the (ever so mysterious) “gay agenda.” They kindly provide the full text of the resolution - as well as their entirely misguided and probably-full-of-repressed-hatred analysis. In reading the resolution - it all sounded pretty good to me - I didn’t see anything pro-homosexual … nothing saying “Kids will be taught that it is cool to be gay and they should try to unlearn how to like the opposite sex.” And I’m not convinced that homosexuals around the country meet in their secret society to plot their agenda to warp our youth in to enjoying “bath houses.” Did I mention that I f\*cking hate Focus on the Family and everything they stand for? ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/26 "2001-07-08T02:47:32Z")
Gay Ed? Well, there’s a sex lecture the boys won’t sleep through. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/27 "2001-07-08T02:48:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrMatrix \* > \*\*People will not become gay because they are taught gay education any more than European history will make kids European. \*\* Frankly I don’t care whether people become gay; that’s their business. In fact, because of overpopulation, I’d prefer it. But, I must object to **DrM’s** quote. To my knowledge, no research has ever been done on whether gay education makes more people become gay. I know it is claimed that being gay is inborn, but, AFAIK this proposition is still just a hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/28 "2001-07-08T05:05:37Z")
I believe that stats show those with gay friends or who are educated about gay issues are much more tolerant, according to stats. Not gayer, though. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/29 "2001-07-08T05:30:02Z")
I, too, would need more information about this alleged “gay ed” course before I call the OPer a raving homophobic lunatic (in The Pit, of course). Esprix ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/30 "2001-07-08T05:41:26Z")
Gay Ed? Maybe it will help the homosexual suicide rate go down, but it will definitely drive up the suicide rate of kids named Edward as a result of constant name jokes. Personally, I think Gay Ed. will end up being just another thing being tought in school and not by the parents who should be teaching it. Assuming that these kinds of classes don’t leave parents totally detatched from their child, they’re going to have to start teaching them Math, English, History, and Science after their kid comes home from a hard day at school and Gay Ed., Sex Ed., Home Ec., and wood shop. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/31 "2001-07-08T07:12:31Z")
> [@](#): > > To my knowledge, no research has ever been done on whether gay education makes more people become gay. I know it is claimed that being gay is inborn, but, AFAIK this proposition is still just a hypothesis. Well, I’m all for research. But I’d be willing to bet that no classroom course is going to persuade a high school student to switch sexual orientations. From what I can recall of myself at that age, my sexual orientation was already pretty set in stone. For that matter, as best as I can recall, it was already set when I was in kindergarten. ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/32 "2001-07-08T07:24:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neon Frying Pan \* > \*\*Gay Rights, Gay discrimination laws, Gay sexual harassment suits, Gay alliances, Gay Day, Gay parades, Gay suits against the Boy Scouts, and the other night, the TV station Bravo Network had on nothing but Gay movies!! > > Gay Education? > > Since I was in school, teachers now have to contend with law enforced lax discipline, kids refusing to stand for or say the Pledge to the flag, no longer able to grab a kid, various religious rights, various religious holidays, specialty foods for various nationalities, Ebonics, racial discrimination, sexual discrimination, sexual harassment, the potential to be accused of molestation, the rights of physically handicapped students, the rights of girls, boys, freedom of speech, ‘forced passing,’ having to know just what type of sex ed to teach, having to be careful of ‘discriminatory and racially biased’ books used in teaching, and, in some cases need to be bilingual and to know children’s rights and handle the differences in several cultures. > > Now someone wants them to teach homosexuals how to be homosexual?? > \*\* Civilzed people call it respecting others. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/33 "2001-07-08T07:28:43Z")
It strikes me that all I ever learned in health class was heterosexuality, save of course for the unit on AIDS, and I’m still as queer as a football bat. Perhaps I picked up lesbianism in physics. ---
**Author:** ![MaceMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@MaceMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaceMan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/34 "2001-07-08T11:50:56Z")
If Neon Frying Pan was correct, that teachers were looking to teach a course on “being gay,” then there would be reason for concern. But his polemic is very typical of the exaggeration seen by those who fantasize about conspiratorial “homosexual agendas.” In reality, the schools are not thinking about teaching the how-to’s of gay sex, but rather are trying to mitigate the bullying and harassment of gay students (and some straight students who are merely _perceived_ as gay). In many schools around the country, teachers are not allowed to even mention homosexuality, so it is not surprising that the word “gay” is used to insult even among kindergartners. Below I’m going to paraphrase and slightly change the OP, to demonstrate the homophobia it contains. > [@](#): > > What is this crap? First I thought women wanted to be treated like men, then came women’s rights, anti-discrimination laws, sexual harassment suits, the NOW, parades, women suing to be included in groups that discriminate based on gender, and the other night, the TV station Bravo Network had on nothing but movies featuring women’s issues–excuse me, but they should confine that to Lifetime!! or substitute the word “black” for “women” above, with the appropriate changes. See the blatant sexism and racism? And now let’s turn his rant to the opposite extreme–what if a gay person had complained: > [@](#): > > I almost rolled out of bed last night when I heard they are thinking of discussing straight sex in schools that are funded by my tax dollars!! Not only do our poor children face a barrage of heterosexual imagery on TV and popular culture, some perverts even kiss the opposite sex or hold hands in public, can you imagine? Everyone from Britney Spears to Hugh Hefner seems to be promoting the heterosexual lifestyle today. I swear, I cannot turn on the tv or the radio without being exposed to flagrant heterosexuality. And now, they actually want to discuss things like pregnancy and heterosexual sex with our children!! I know that straights, exist, but come on!! Do we really need any more support for this lifestyle in our schools? Ridiculous? Yes, and I think that’s my point. ---
**Author:** ![bunnymom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@bunnymom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bunnymom)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/35 "2001-07-08T14:34:53Z")
Its early for me, so please excuse any spelling/grammar errors. My oldest son is 12, and has not progressed past the ‘Girls have cooties’ stage yet. But when he does start to consider his sexuality and romantic (or otherwise) relationships, I would be pleased to know that someone somewhere was teaching his **peers** tolerance, understanding, and respect for other human beings. In my mind (a strange place, granted) this proposed ‘Gay-ed’ would be helpful not for teaching **my** son **how** to be gay/straight/whatever, but to teach his peers how to **treat other people with kindness and respect, regardless of their sexual orientation**. It would be good to know that kids who would otherwise be taught (from parents, siblings, peers, NFP, tv, whathaveyou) hateful and discriminatory(is that a word) opinions would have a chance to at least be exposed to alternatives like acceptance and tolerance. How is teaching kids respect for others bad? Also, could anyone please explain (I’m a bun of _very_ little brain) to me how being pro-anything gets to meaning ‘working aggressively toward making more folks DO or BECOME a thing’? How is it that some people believe that if someone is ,say, Pro-choice, that they are actually out there grabbing preggos and dragging them to abortion clinics? How do they get to believe that a Gay-Ed class would be actually recruiting formerly straight students into some Junior Homosexuals Club? Does he/she think the only way a kid could pass Gay-Ed would be to have a homosexual encounter and do a report on it? Will they be partnering them up to do so? Sheesh. From what I’ve read about the Gay-Ed deal, it sounds like a helpful thing to me. Also, NFP, I don’t like the way you strung ‘homosexual’ and ‘pervert’ together in your OP. Maybe a little Gay-Ed wouldn’t hurt you, either. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/36 "2001-07-08T15:14:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andygirl \* > \*\*I believe that stats show those with gay friends or who are educated about gay issues are much more tolerant, according to stats. Not gayer, though. \*\* What stats would those be? I’m not actually asking for an actual cite I’m just curious as to where you heard this. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/37 "2001-07-08T15:18:00Z")
Oh well, at least the Focus Family site debunks some urban myths… Seriously, I mean, how can you NOT know how to be gay or straight? I mean, I didn’t know that you needed instructions? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/38 "2001-07-08T15:25:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by three bunny mama \* > \*\* > > It would be good to know that kids who would otherwise be taught (from parents, siblings, peers, NFP, tv, whathaveyou) hateful and discriminatory(is that a word) opinions would have a chance to at least be exposed to alternatives like acceptance and tolerance. \*\* I have no objections to schools setting standards of behavior. No teasing, no fighting, and no chewing gum while at school are all peachy keen with me. I don’t think it is the school’s place to instruct my children on how they should think about or treat specific groups of people. I especially don’t think we need a class devoted to a teeny tiny portion of the population. Why not a class devoted to hispanics or asians? Granted it doesn’t appear as though the NEA is asking for Gay Ed to appear in schools across America. That seems to be something the OP jumped the gun on. > [@](#): > > \*\* > How is teaching kids respect for others bad? \*\* I’d rather schools concentrated on teaching children how to think for themselves. Which is something I don’t think they do very well these days. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Also, NFP, I don’t like the way you strung ‘homosexual’ and ‘pervert’ together in your OP. Maybe a little Gay-Ed wouldn’t hurt you, either. \*\* Yes, he’s thinking incorrect thoughts. We shall have to reeducate him through labor or intensive schooling. I’m sure that’s not what you want, is it? Marc ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/39 "2001-07-08T16:00:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > Oh, and **DrMatrix** … > > > [@](#): > > > > People will not become gay because they are taught gay education any more than European history will make kids European. > > Wow. Can I take lessons in pithy pointmaking from you? Please? > \*\* Perhaps he’ll give some to you, but be warned: It won’t make you a pithy point-maker. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bunnymom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@bunnymom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bunnymom)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598/40 "2001-07-08T16:18:40Z")
MGibson - After reading your post, and re-reading my own, I can see where I did not communicate my thoughts as clearly as I would have liked. I’ll try to explain a little better. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by three bunny mama > It would be good to know that kids who would otherwise > be taught (from parents, siblings, peers, NFP, tv, > whathaveyou) hateful and discriminatory(is that a word) > opinions would have a chance to at least be exposed to > alternatives like acceptance and tolerance What I said here (in this case, relating to homosexuality) is also what my feelings are toward racism, sexism, religeous intolerance, etc. I see that I probably should have included these other things as qualifiers. In plain words, it would be a good thing if kids were impelled to ‘play nice with everyone’. And while I also agree completely with your wish to teach your children this on your own, I think it can’t hurt to have a sort of insurance policy against bad parenting. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it is the school’s place to instruct my children > on how they should think about or treat specific groups of people. I > especially don’t think we need a class devoted to a teeny tiny portion of > the population. Why not a class devoted to hispanics or asians? I agree with this as well. I think it would be more productive to teach tolerance of _all_ people, races, nationalities, etc. I think that point is where a specific ‘Gay-Ed’ class gets bumpy. By singling out one group for specific classes, doesn’t that imply that others are less important? Would it be acceptable to teach a general ‘Tolerance-Ed’ rather than a group-specific Muslim-Ed or Asian-Ed? > [@](#): > > quote: > How is teaching kids respect for others bad? > > ``` > I'd rather schools concentrated on teaching children how to think for > themselves. Which is something I don't think they do very well these > days. > > ``` No, the schools are most likely not doing a good job of this. I see the same sort of problem with individual thinking being squashed here, too. I think that may be another debate in itself. But I don’t understand how exposing kids to a choice like tolerance would prevent them from thinking for themselves. They could either do it, or not. But having been exposed to it, they could not say they never knew they had an alternative. > [@](#): > > Also, NFP, I don’t like the way you strung ‘homosexual’ > and ‘pervert’ together in your OP. Maybe a little Gay-Ed > wouldn’t hurt you, either. > > ``` > Yes, he's thinking incorrect thoughts. We shall have to reeducate him > through labor or intensive schooling. I'm sure that's not what you want, > is it? > > ``` This was clearly my opinion, and should not have been out in a debate post. I see now that it doesn’t belong here, and thank you for pointing it out. I am hoping your comment was meant as sarcasm, and not something you were able to derive from my post. But just in case- No, I do not want the schools, government or anyone else to become the ‘thought police’. I do not believe that giving children information with which to make a choice is being ‘thought police’. People will think what they will, no matter what they may be taught. By showing them that they have a choice, you give them the _opportunity_ to think _something different_ from what they normally would. You are not mandating it. I believe this is a good thing. BTW, Thanks for your reply to me. I was a little unsure about posting, but getting such a civil respones makes me more confident. This ain’t as bad as I expected it to be. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eaching-gay-ed-in-the-schools-what-the/71598.md?page=3)