# Early 20th century use of "minus" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 5, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977 "2015-09-05T02:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![LiliesOfTheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c0e974/32.png) [@LiliesOfTheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LiliesOfTheField)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/1 "2015-09-05T02:31:00Z")
When I was very young, my father (born in 1920) quizzed me once on my mental addition and subtraction talents. He was satisfied with my addition. But my subtraction enraged him. He asked me (for example) “What is 8 minus 10?” I hadn’t learned negative numbers yet, so I said “You can’t do that!” After a little back-and-forth I discovered that what he called 8 minus 10 was equivalent to what I called 10 minus 8. I had to mentally reverse each problem to get the correct solution. Meanwhile, he was engaged at our terrible school system and the nonsense they were teaching these days. What was going on there? Was subtraction basically different back in the day? Would the above problem be written 10-8 but read aloud “8 minus 10”? Or was it also written 8-10? I’ve never heard of this again, even from old timers (tho I don’t typically discuss arithmetic with people). Could this be related to his coming from a Mediterranean country, or New York schools? I don’t think he ended up graduated from high school, but he was quite brilliant so he must have learned this somewhere. Is it a regionalism? What do you know about this? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/2 "2015-09-05T02:45:21Z")
I think he just misremembered how to do it. Simple math problems were always read left to right. 8-10 is read as “eight minus ten”. Perhaps your father was Yoda? ---
**Author:** ![LiliesOfTheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c0e974/32.png) [@LiliesOfTheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LiliesOfTheField)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/3 "2015-09-05T02:55:35Z")
Certainly it’s possible that he forgot, tho I think it unlikely. I suspect it is something Yoda-ish, where, when read aloud, the numbers are reversed. I wonder if it’s old-fashioned, or regional, or an ESL affect. If it’s old-fashioned, when did it come out of style? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/4 "2015-09-05T03:18:07Z")
> [@LiliesOfTheField](#): > > Would the above problem be written 10-8 but read aloud “8 minus 10”? I have heard people who would say the (conventionally written) subtraction problem as “8 from 10.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/5 "2015-09-05T03:34:20Z")
Arabic and Hebrew are read from right to left. So somebody used to working in those languages and translating what he’s reading into English might reverse the expression. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/6 "2015-09-05T04:40:31Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I have heard people who would say the (conventionally written) subtraction problem as “8 from 10.” Indeed. > [@](#): > > You can’t take three from two > Two is less than three > So you look at the four in the tens place > Now that’s really four tens > So you make it three tens > Regroup, and you change a ten to ten ones > And you add them to the two and get twelve > And you take away three, that’s nine > Is that clear? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/7 "2015-09-05T07:42:42Z")
Are you sure he wasn’t asking ‘minus 8 plus ten’ (because that _is_ the same as 10-8) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/8 "2015-09-05T14:06:55Z")
I started school in 1942 and never heard such a thing. On an RPM calculator you would do 8 minus 10 plus, but that is because of the R (operators follow arguments). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/9 "2015-09-05T14:07:55Z")
10 - 8 would be pronounced in modern (post-1960s) schooling as “ten minus eight”. With the obvious answer being “two”. 10 - 8 would be pronounced in earlier (pre-1960s) schooling as “eight from ten”. With the obvious answer being “two”. I suspect the OPs Dad was using his old way of thinking and reading but had updated his terminology, thinking that “minus” was merely a new fancy technical synonym for the older word “from”. Without him realizing that change also required re-ordering how the equation is read. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/10 "2015-09-05T15:25:45Z")
But surely, “8 minus 10” = “-2”… wasn’t that the answer he was expecting? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/11 "2015-09-05T15:27:20Z")
Ah, re-read the OP. Could he seriously have expected the answer (+) 2? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/12 "2015-09-05T15:45:35Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > 10 - 8 would be pronounced in modern (post-1960s) schooling as “ten minus eight”. With the obvious answer being “two”. > > 10 - 8 would be pronounced in earlier (pre-1960s) schooling as “eight from ten”. With the obvious answer being “two”. > > I suspect the OPs Dad was using his old way of thinking and reading but had updated his terminology, thinking that “minus” was merely a new fancy technical synonym for the older word “from”. Without him realizing that change also required re-ordering how the equation is read. I agree. I think this is the most (ETA: only, actually) plausible explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/13 "2015-09-05T15:59:30Z")
Just a note because I’m cranky this morning. I don’t like it when people say ‘Ten _take away_ eight’ or whatever. It’s _minus_, and get off my lawn! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![LiliesOfTheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c0e974/32.png) [@LiliesOfTheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LiliesOfTheField)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/14 "2015-09-05T19:35:37Z")
I think “eight from ten” mixed up with “minus” makes the most sense. I vaguely remember hearing the “eight from ten” type recitation in old movies, books, and possibly from elders. He was definitely not asking about negative numbers. I was in too small a grade for that, and the answers that he deemed correct were all positive numbers. Thank you for giving me a plausible answer to a forty year old mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/15 "2015-09-06T01:46:58Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > 10 - 8 would be pronounced in modern (post-1960s) schooling as “ten minus eight”. With the obvious answer being “two”. > > 10 - 8 would be pronounced in earlier (pre-1960s) schooling as “eight from ten”. With the obvious answer being “two”. To this very day, aren’t IRS forms and worksheets full of instructions like “Subtract line 17 from line 8”? I always have to do a doublethink to parse instructions like that. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/16 "2015-09-06T01:48:46Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > On an RPM calculator you would do 8 minus 10 plus, but that is because of the R (operators follow arguments). More exactly: To do 8-10 you would do: 8 ENTER 10 - To do 10-8 you would do: 10 ENTER 8 - (Some RPN calculators have the ENTER key marked with a comma.) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/17 "2015-09-06T15:56:43Z")
I think I remember seeing, in obscure or old-fashioned contexts, the word “less” used in place of “minus,” as in “How much is 10 less 8” for 10–8. Confusingly, this could also be worded “How much is 8 less than 10.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/18 "2015-09-06T16:15:18Z")
On a tangential topic, as a child I was very amused when I realized my Indian relatives used “into” for multiplication instead of division. For me: 5 into 25 is 5. For them: 5 into 25 is 125 Weird. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/19 "2015-09-06T16:23:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > 10 - 8 would be pronounced in modern (post-1960s) schooling as “ten minus eight”. With the obvious answer being “two”. > > 10 - 8 would be pronounced in earlier (pre-1960s) schooling as “eight from ten”. With the obvious answer being “two”. > > I suspect the OPs Dad was using his old way of thinking and reading but had updated his terminology, thinking that “minus” was merely a new fancy technical synonym for the older word “from”. Without him realizing that change also required re-ordering how the equation is read. I learned arithmetic in the early 50s, and we always used the “ten minus eight” configuration. Sometimes a “word” problem was phrased differently, but that was an exception. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977/20 "2015-09-06T20:41:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think I remember seeing, in obscure or old-fashioned contexts, the word “less” used in place of “minus,” as in “How much is 10 less 8” for 10–8. One still sees this usage on financial documents. Example: ```auto Gross pay: $2300.00 Less deductions: 150.00 Less withholding: 230.00 ---------------------------------------- Net pay: 1920.00 ``` It also commonly appears on bank deposit slips, on the line marked “Less cash back:” I once asked a teller, if I put a number there, do I get that much less cash back? Went right over her head. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-20th-century-use-of-minus/729977.md?page=2)