Early Beatles--great! Later Beatles--mediocre.

Cafe Society
21

Well, if we’re talking about the Help! soundtrack LP, almost half the songs aren’t even the Beatles, but George Martin and studio musicians.

Obviously the Beatles should have continued playing monosyllable “yeah-yeah” Merseybeat well into 1970, which would have taken their career path to the same heights as Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas.

How anyone could listen to an album of Merseybeat straight through and yet find the later stuff, with all of it’s revolutionary sounds and interesting lyrics boring baffles me. It’s like saying reading “Hop on Pop” over and over is better than Shakespeare.

Other than that, I give up. Enjoy your early Beatles!

22

I’m just talking about the regular album–the songs.

False dichotomy. At any rate, Help! itself was hardly brainless Merseybeat.

Precisely the point. If I want real sophistication, I don’t need the Beatles in the first place. I’ll listen to an Elliott Carter string quartet or some of Schoenberg’s songs. But if a rock band is going to try to be sophisticated, then they’d damn well better succeed, or I’m just going to blow them off. There’s a hell of a lot of music out there, and I’m pretty picky.

But the early Beatles did what they did with true excellence.

23

Beyond… into decline. I totally disagree, also, about taking the quartet as far as it could go. That’s like saying the Beatles already encompassed what Zeppelin was later to do, which obviously isn’t the truth. And what about a trio like Soup, doing totally different things with three guys instead of four? No, the “beyond” the Beatles went into was the studio confectionary. They did a lot of original and creative stuff in there, just not much that was truly excellent, IMO.

Correct. I was born in 1971. I have no doubt those albums had a great influence. Lee Hunt had a great influence on Keats, but he is not known today as a great poet.

No doubt that Pep, as an entire package, was pretty incredible at the time. The album cover is still brilliant and non-dated (to my eye). Many of the songs themselves are brilliantly original–with the caveat that they’re just not that good and whole overall.

Not a big stones fan, but I do prefer–surprise–their early work.

24

Huh? They weren’t trying to be anything. They didn’t wake up one morning and say “Well this was fun, but now we will be sophisticated!” Every change they made came from curiosity–“this sounds like a good idea, can we do it?” They weren’t even trying to make anybody happy, please anybody, or impress their critics. If you listen to how certain songs came to be, it usually amounted to his:

  1. Paul and/or John hear something they like
  2. They approach George Martin.
  3. George Martin says 'It can’t be done that way"
  4. They say “Fuck you, sure it can!”
  5. They all work together to make it happen.
  6. Success!

It’s no different than an inventor, an artist, a poet, or a scientist. They have an initial idea, they figure out a way to make it work, they make it work. There’s no master plan to achieve greatness. They dreampt about reaching the “toppermost of the poppermost” but once they got there, they didn’t laugh maniacally and exclaim that they were going to leave their roots behind and try to be “sophisticated,” whatever the hell that means.

Also, there is a lot more to rock n’roll than a lead guitar, a rhythm, a bass, and drums, fast (and dirty) lyrics, and a driving beat. The Beatles grew up in a port town, and records came in from all over the world, in all sorts of genres. They were exposed to Buddy Holley and Elvis, but that’s not all they listened to, and so why pigeon-hole them in one single genre?

25

The 6@6 Most Popular Beatles Selections:[ul][li]1966: Eleanor Rigby[]1968: Hey Jude[]1967: A Day In The Life[]1969: Here Comes the Sun[]1967: Strawberry Fields Forever1965: Ticket to Ride[/ul]The Most Popular Year: 1966 (37 Votes)[/li]** Eleanor Rigby ** From: Revolver With 11 Votes
** Here, There & Everywhere ** From: Revolver With 5 Votes
** And Your Bird Can Sing ** From: Revolver With 4 Votes
** Paperback Writer ** From: Capitol Single #44310 With 4 Votes
** Rain ** From: Capitol Single #44310 With 3 Votes
** Taxman ** From: Revolver With 2 Votes
** Tomorrow Never Knows ** From: Revolver With 2 Votes
** Doctor Robert ** From: Revolver With 1 Votes
** For No One ** From: Revolver With 1 Votes
** Good Day, Sunshine ** From: Revolver With 1 Votes
** Got to Get You Into My Life ** From: Revolver With 1 Votes
** I’m Only Sleeping ** From: Revolver With 1 Votes
** She Said She Said ** From: Revolver With 1 Votes
The 2nd Most Popular Year: 1967 (34 Votes)
** A Day In The Life ** From: Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band With 7 Votes
** Strawberry Fields Forever ** From: Magical Mystery Tour With 6 Votes
** I Am the Walrus ** From: Magical Mystery Tour With 5 Votes
** Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds ** From: Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band With 5 Votes
** Penny Lane ** From: Magical Mystery Tour With 3 Votes
** When I’m 64 ** From: Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band With 2 Votes
** Fool On The Hill ** From: Magical Mystery Tour With 1 Votes
** Hello Goodbye ** From: Magical Mystery Tour With 1 Votes
** Lovely Rita ** From: Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band With 1 Votes
** She’s Leaving Home ** From: Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band With 1 Votes
** Within You Without You ** From: Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band With 1 Votes
** Your Mother Should Know ** From: Magical Mystery Tour With 1 Votes

The 3rd Most Popular Year: 1965 (33 Votes)
** Ticket to Ride ** From: Help! With 6 Votes
** In My Life ** From: Rubber Soul With 5 Votes
** Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown) ** From: Rubber Soul With 4 Votes
** Yesterday ** From: Help! With 4 Votes
** You’ve Got To Hide Your Love Away ** From: Help! With 4 Votes
** Day Tripper ** From: Capitol Single #44309 With 2 Votes
** We Can Work It Out ** From: Capitol Single #44309 With 2 Votes
** Help! ** From: Help! With 1 Votes
** I’m Down ** From: Capitol Single #44308 With 1 Votes
** I’m Looking Through You ** From: Rubber Soul With 1 Votes
** Michelle ** From: Rubber Soul With 1 Votes
** Nowhere Man ** From: Rubber Soul With 1 Votes
** You Won’t See Me ** From: Rubber Soul With 1 Votes

The 4th Most Popular Year: 1968 (32 Votes)
** Hey Jude ** From: Apple Single #2276 With 8
** While My Guitar Gently Weeps ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 4
** Blackbird ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 3
** Helter Skelter ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 3
** Long, Long, Long ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 2
** Revolution (Single) ** From: Apple Single #2276 With 2
** Rocky Raccoon ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 2
** Happiness is a Warm Gun ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 1
** Julia ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 1
** Lady Madonna ** From: Capital Single #2138 With 1
** Ob La Di Ob La Da ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 1
** Revolution 9 ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 1
** Sexy Sadie ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 1
** The Continuing Story Of Bungalow Bill ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 1
** Why Don’t We Do It In The Road? ** From: The Beatles - White Album With 1

The 5th Most Popular Year: 1969 (21 Votes)
** Here Comes the Sun ** From: Abbey Road With 6 Votes
** Hey Bulldog ** From: Yellow Submarine With 5 Votes
** Abbey Road Medley ** From: Abbey Road With 3 Votes
** I Want You (She’s So Heavy) ** From: Abbey Road With 2 Votes
** Maxwell Silver’s Hammer ** From: Abbey Road With 2 Votes
** Only a Northern Song ** From: Yellow Submarine With 1 Votes
** Something ** From: Abbey Road With 1 Votes
** Yellow Submarine ** From: Yellow Submarine With 1 Votes

The 6th Most Popular Year: 1964 (16 Votes)
** The Things We Said Today ** From: A Hard Day’s Night With 4 Votes
** And I Love Her ** From: A Hard Day’s Night With 2 Votes
** I Feel Fine ** From: Capitol Single #44321 With 2 Votes
** I’m Happy Just To Dance With You ** From: A Hard Day’s Night With 2 Votes
** A Hard Day’s Night ** From: A Hard Day’s Night With 1 Votes
** Can’t Buy Me Love ** From: A Hard Day’s Night With 1 Votes
** Eight Days a Week ** From: Beatles For Sale With 1 Votes
** If I Fell ** From: A Hard Day’s Night With 1 Votes
** I’ll Be Back ** From: A Hard Day’s Night With 1 Votes
** I’m a Loser ** From: Beatles For Sale With 1 Votes

The 7th Most Popular Year: 1970 (7 Votes)
** The Long and Winding Road ** From: Let It Be With 3 Votes
** Get Back ** From: Let It Be With 2 Votes
** For You Blue ** From: Let It Be With 1 Votes
** Two of Us ** From: Let It Be With 1 Votes

The 8th Most Popular Year: 1963 (6 Votes)
** No Reply ** From: Please Please Me With 2 Votes
** All My Loving ** From: With The Beatles With 1 Votes
** I Saw Her Standing There ** From: Please Please Me With 1 Votes
** Misery ** From: Introducing…The Beatles With 1 Votes
** Money (That’s What I Want) ** From: With The Beatles With 1 Votes

(To show Dopers have good taste, Free as a Bird didn’t even make the list)

26

The proof of the pudding for the early Beatles is in fact “The Early Beatles”, an American compilation of the tracks from their first British LP, “Please Please Me” that Capitol hadn’t already released on one of their Cuisinart specials.

Love Me Do, their first mega-hit in Britain, is leaden and boring. The only reason this was a hit is that every other band in Britain was doing their horrible blues covers at the time.

Twist and Shout is BY FAR not the best recorded version of this song, even among other recordings of it in wide release at the time.

Anna (Go to Him) is a song I never care if I hear again.

Same for their cover versions of Chains and Boys , neither of which which is that good a song in the first place.

Ask Me Why is completely disposable filler.

Please Please Me, their second British hit, is a step up from Love Me Do, but is still more or less devoid of real energy, their voices faltering to get through the unnecessarily angular melody.

P.S. I Love You is horrible. Just plain horrible.

Baby It’s You I can’t even call to mind at this point.

A Taste of Honey. Gimme Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass any day of the week over this snoozefest.

Do You Want To Know a Secret is probably the best song on the album, and it’s still not all that good compared to their later work.

The Beatles were already a thing of the past bythe time I was aware of the world, but they were still a pervasive part of the culture. I was in college when the CD’s came out (I bought the mono versions on vinyl ‘cuz’ I hate early sixties stereo mixes) and tried to buy up the American album releases as well. After barely getting through this album, the zeitgeist had vanished for me, and I realized just how overrated their early work is.

27

You have a lot of knowledge, and I respect that. I guess we just disagree about the overall success level of their later work. It’s creative, it was extremely original for its time, and I can certainly see why someone would like it. I just don’t like it much overall.

As for “trying” to be sophisticated, it’s not as though I think the Beatles actually said to themselves, “Let’s try to be sophisticated.” I’m just saying that they tried an approach on many songs (and the oppostie approach on many of Paul’s music hall songs) that would have been been more “meaningful” and arty than their previous songs had it worked. But to me it doesn’t.

Where are Roland and the anti-Beatle gang, anyway? I was more interested in hearing what they had to say. All I can offer is my own opinions. They are much more knowledgable than I.

28

I love the early Beatles, but disagree strongly with the OP that the mid and later periods were mediocre. They just kept getting better. It’s all good. But for fun, here is a list of songs I like that came out before “Help”

All My Loving
And I Love Her
Any Time At All
Can’t Buy Me Love
Hard Days Night
Hold Me Tight
I Feel Fine
I Saw Her Standing There
I Want To Be Your Man
If I Fell
I’m A Loser
It Wont Be Long
Not A Second Time
Please Please Me
She Loves You
She’s A Woman
Should Have Known Better
Tell Me Why
There’s A Place
Things We Said today
You Can’t Do That

Some pretty good covers too –

I Call Your Name
Money
Please Mr. Postman
Roll Over Beethoven
Twist and Shout
You Really Got a Hold On Me

29

Bah. Figures I’m late. I didn’t even notice this thread before I started this. The topics aren’t exactly alike, but they do intersect quite a bit.

Suffice it to say that if you’d like to yell at me for what I said in the “One-Hit Wonders” thread, please pop over to mine. My position is more clearly outlined there, and it includes my position on Tears For Fears as well. I don’t have anything to contribute here that I haven’t already said there.

If you just want to debate the Beatles, by all means ignore me and continue, and sorry to inadvertently intrude, Aeschines.

30

So after carefully reading this thread and Roland’s spinoff, and thinking on it for a while, I’ve come to this conclusion:

Aeschines isn’t wild about the Beatles’ older stuff, and Roland doesn’t particularly care for them at all. Everybody else likes them.

And I really don’t see much more coming out of this thread. Whether or not you can account for taste, there’s sure as hell no point in debating it. You’re more likely to change somebody’s mind on abortion than you are on the quality of Revolver.

Me, I like the Beatles pretty well. I prefer their later works, but the early stuff is good too. There’s no denying their influence and innovation, but it’s kinda hard to say that they’re not overrated simply by virtue of the number of people who claim that they’re the greatest thing of all time, for ever and ever.

31

I disagree with the OP on the later Beatles stuff. Though it seems I’ve come to the party late, so I’ll only say that I find While My Guitar Gently Weeps to be one of my favorite songs… so that is how much I disagree ;).

32

In response to Aeschines’ question about my absence from the thread: I agree in essence with ultrafilter. Taste is taste, and debating it is rather pointless. Certainly, you can discuss and debate specific qualities of the art in question, but the merit of the work as the whole is left for the individual to decide. As such, I can only debate the Beatles in reference to something, such that they can be compared and contrasted. My spinoff thread denotes how I feel about them with regard to Tears For Fears. With regard to other bands, I feel differently about them. For example, I’d rather listen to The Beatles than most country music.

That said, I’ll attempt to respond to the OP anyway: I actually find the Beatles’ later works more to my tastes than the rest. They upped the complexity a few notches, and tried to use less repetition in each individual song. The problem I think they ran into was that they went too far in the opposite direction, transcending music entirely and producing what were essentially bizzare compilations of sounds. Intriguing, to be sure, but not quite musical…at least, not to my ear.

Thinking about it now, I believe that may be in line with what Aeschines is trying to say; the Beatles’ earlier works could be intepreted to be “better music” than their later efforts simply because they were more easily recognizable as such. But that’s too much extrapolation (even for me :wink: ) to make without any input from the person whose viewpoint I’m guessing at. Any thoughts? Or am I completely off base?

33

Thanks, Roland.

Yes, the later stuff is more complex. I think we’re thinking somewhat along the same lines: to me it’s a problem of “not coming together”; to you it’s “going into the realm of noise.”

I don’t mind dissonance when it’s done well. Crazy, wild tunes: sure. To me the later Beatles music just doesn’t seem to work. Paul’s ditties are another matter: they “work”; it’s just that their quality is usually low.

I’m listening to the album Free Live right now. Basic blues rock, but it works and seems more “hard core” than the late Beatles work.

Maybe your phrase “better music” in the earlier period does indeed sum it up well.

34

Holy crap. God forbid we have pop music like that. :rolleyes:

So now we have the “authenticity” charge: any artist who isn’t writing directly and entirely from his own personal experience is a phony. What bullshit. Not only is that lousy criticism in general, you have no idea if it’s applicable: you don’t know what was in Paul McCartney’s head when he wrote those words. He didn’t descend from on high; he has just as much right to write about loneliness and despair as any other human being. Fame is no insulation from loneliness; quite the reverse. (Ask Elvis.)

Again, you don’t have a clue. “Nowhere Man” was John Lennon writing about himself; he was bored, frustrated and depressed. Yes, Aeschines, it’s true: famous people are not always happy.

Yeah, all those ponderous, serious anthems like “Rocky Raccoon,” “You Know My Name (Look Up the Number),” “I’m So Tired,” “Martha My Dear,” “Back in the USSR,” “Good Day Sunshine,” “Drive My Car,” “Everybody’s Got Something to Hide,” “Piggies,” “Polythene Pam,” “Paperback Writer,” “The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill,” “Old Brown Shoe,” “Don’t Pass Me By,” etc. etc. etc.

35

Were I a guy inclined to opinions I’d say the Beatles were a fairly average skiffle band that got lucky with it’s choice of producer. Before they came under the thrall of George Martin their recordings were of such insufferable tripe as “My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean” and “Ain’t She Sweet.” After Martin signed them they suddenly, miraculously went from being some punks getting drunk and playing in Hamburg whorehouses to world-class musicians and songwriters experimenting with unusual rhythms and instrumentations? Wouldn’t that be more in the province of a classical musician, composer, and arranger who saw there was no money in modern classical music but who saw the route to fortune in playing Swengali to Liverpool’s answer to the Backstreet Boys?

But Martin was not alone in ghosting for the boys. Someone with a feel for language, pop music, and, most importantly, a feminine outlook wrote lyrics that were often more sensitive and sappy than you’d expect from a quartet of Teddy Boys, all the better to appeal to their target audience of pubescent girls. (C’mon! No GUY wrote “If I Fell!” And “She’s Leaving Home” to have fun by working in an office? This concept would never occur to a guy in his early 20s who sees the the advantages of having Mum wash his clothes while he sleeps off the night before. And speaking of “The Night Before,” that song is TOTALLY from a girl’s point of view.) This person is apparently no longer writing for them after “Magical Mystery Tour,” demonstrated by the loss of pop sensibility in their music, awkward and even stupid lyrics (“Rocky Raccoon,” anyone?), and the fact that 90% of their later music is just plain crap. So, between 1962 and 1967 there was some woman involved with the group but after 1967 her influence ended? A possibility is Cynthia Lennon, who learned about John’s affair with Yoko in 1967. Another could be Brian Epstein, who died in 1967, if we want to give in to the cliche of the Sensitive Gay Man.

For my final pieces of evidence that Lennon and McCartney wrote few of the songs credited to them, I present their careers after the breakup of the Beatles. “Woman Is the Nigger of the World?” “My Dog He Got Three Legs?” McCartney could, conceivably, have had a minor career without having been a Beatle but Lennon’s songs, including the lifeless and insipid “Imagine,” demonstrate that he was otherwise doomed to busking and would NEVER have been given a record contract.

But I don’t have an opinion. I merely state facts. :wink:

36

No pun intended?

37

Since I’m also partly responsible for this thread along with Roland, I just wanted to pop in and say that I don’t have time for it tonight, but I’ll try to get some thoughts together for tomorrow.

38

Well, they recognized that they took their quartet as far as it could go. I like Zep well enough when it came out, but I have no interest in listening to them now. Cream on the understand I still love, but you can’t compare them - Ringo is no Ginger Baker, and Cream had a different background (jazz/blues) than the Beatles did.

Now that music is so splintered, I’m not sure you can understand the universal impact the Beatles had to those of us who were teenagers at the time - and the later Beatles too. Nick Danger from Firesign Theater was full of White album references. Three years before you were born the play for my high school was Rocky Racoon. I’m not going to claim that the White Album is as good as Revolver or Sgt. Peppers, but I find the earlier albums very much like cotton candy, nice but not long lasting, while the later ones have just more nuances to get.

A question - do you like middle Dylan (Bringing It All Back Home to John Wesley Harding) or do you think that is pretentious also?

39

I do not have Dylan well-organized in my mind, but I generally don’t find him pretentious at all. If I a have a complaint about him (and I don’t think this is uncommon), it’s that he can be frustratingly cryptic. Or even dadaist.

But it’s a difference in tone. Dylan isn’t “arty” and he doesn’t try to be a badass.

40

Cryptic and dadaist is arty. I’ve always considered Dylan arty.