# Early mainstream media portrayals of LGBT characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771 "2016-06-19T14:50:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/41 "2016-06-20T15:36:25Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > No doubt that’s why Captain Renault is always manipulating to have beautiful women owe him a favor for helping them get out of Casablanca. In other words, you got the wrong guy. Did you mean Major Strasser, or Peter Lorre’s character (of whose sexual preference I have seen no indication at all), or perhaps Cuddles Sakall’s character, or Leonid Kinskey’s, or really anyone else (except Rick, I suppose) would be more believable. Critic Roger Ebert was the one who described Captain Renault as the “subtly homosexual police chief,” and the rumor for years has been that Rains chose to play him as an arch gay or bisexual man who had a crush on Rick. (For a video exegesis, see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wceuZNu3WiY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wceuZNu3WiY)). ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/42 "2016-06-20T15:48:22Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Not Claire Bloom’s character-- Julie Harris’s. No, I meant Claire Bloom’s character, Theodora the psychic. Julie Harris is the object of her attention, but Harris is clearly smitten with the (married) professor who heads the group. There are a number of scenes that reflect this, as when Julie Harris’s character asks her about her background. Eleanor: What’s your apartment like? Theo: Oh it’s an old place we’ve furnished ourselves from a lot of stuff we picked up from the junk shops. We both love fixing over old things. Eleanor: Like me. (laughs) You married? Theo: (pause) No. Theodora is clearly interested in Eleanor and is presented as an “out” lesbian with a somewhat theatrical personality and personal style, but she isn’t shown as evil or wicked, nor is she punished in the film for her sexuality - she’s among the more competent members of the group. In one scene, Eleanor describes Theodora as “unnatural,” but it’s left ambiguous whether she is referring to her sexuality or her psychic abilities, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/43 "2016-06-20T15:49:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Going by books rather than movies - Carmilla had a pretty expressly (for the time) lesbian relationship, albeit between a woman and a vampire. It dates to 1871/72. > > [Carmilla - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla) > > The 1930s movie version edited out any lesbian references, but the 1960 movie Blood and Roses didn’t: > > [Blood and Roses - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_Roses) Nor did _Countess of Blood_ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/44 "2016-06-20T15:59:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Going by books rather than movies - Carmilla had a pretty expressly (for the time) lesbian relationship, albeit between a woman and a vampire. It dates to 1871/72. > > [Carmilla - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla) > > The 1930s movie version edited out any lesbian references, but the 1960 movie Blood and Roses didn’t: > > [Blood and Roses - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_Roses) There’s a (blatantly) lesbian couple in Dumas’ _The Count of Monte Cristo_, but I don’t think they made it into any of the film versions. Admittedly this was likely more down to there already being way too many other characters and their story being easy to excise without affecting any other subplots than to concerns about their sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/45 "2016-06-20T16:27:23Z")
Personal Best, in 1982, featured at least one explicit lesbian love scene. Starting in the late '70s Marvel published a magazine version of the Incredible Hulk outside the Comics Code (sort of similar to DC’s later Vertigo line, I think). There is a cringe-worthy scene from 1980 where Bruce Banner, while showering at the YMCA, is almost [sexually](http://geeksout.org/blogs/atabak426/not-so-great-moments-queer-related-comics-bruce-banner-visits-ymca) [assaulted](http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/02/23/mistakes-of-a-past-history-2/) by two guys. One of them is called “Luellen,” and the other one lisps. It’s pretty offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/46 "2016-06-20T19:03:02Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Starting in the late '70s Marvel published a magazine version of the Incredible Hulk outside the Comics Code (sort of similar to DC’s later Vertigo line, I think). There is a cringe-worthy scene from 1980 where Bruce Banner, while showering at the YMCA, is almost [sexually](http://geeksout.org/blogs/atabak426/not-so-great-moments-queer-related-comics-bruce-banner-visits-ymca) [assaulted](http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/02/23/mistakes-of-a-past-history-2/) by two guys. One of them is called “Luellen,” and the other one lisps. It’s pretty offensive. I’ve been trying to track down an online article I read that discussed this and other early attempts Marvel Comics made at portraying gay people. Jim Shooter - who wrote the Hulk story you reference - had an iron-clad ban on portraying or referring to gay people of any sort during his tenure as Editor-in-Chief. When John Byrne wrote/drew “Alpha Flight”, he very deliberated inserted hints that AF member Northstar was gay. Byrne cited one particular issue (#17 or 18 I think), where Shooter demanded changes to ‘de-gay’ Northstar: In the story, Heather Hudson is making calls around to AF members to reorganize the team after Guardian’s (her husband’s) death. Heather calls Northstar’s residence and there is a panel depicting him swimming in a pool while a speedo-clad beefcake takes the phone out to him. According to Byrne, Shooter saw the page and went ballistic. He demanded Byrne draw a female figure at the edge of the pool, so that instead of two scantily-clad men hanging out together, it was a mixed-sex pool party. If I can find that article, I’ll post the link. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/47 "2016-06-20T19:16:29Z")
Reflections in a Golden Eye (1967) with Marlon Brando, Elizabeth Taylor and Brian Keith. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/48 "2016-06-20T19:19:48Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > I’ve been trying to track down an online article I read that discussed this and other early attempts Marvel Comics made at portraying gay people. Jim Shooter - who wrote the Hulk story you reference - had an iron-clad ban on portraying or referring to gay people of any sort during his tenure as Editor-in-Chief. When John Byrne wrote/drew “Alpha Flight”, he very deliberated inserted hints that AF member Northstar was gay. Wasn’t the _“Arnie Roth, Captain America’s aging buddy from WWII who happens to be gay and Cap is cool with it”_ storyline during Shooter’s tenure as E-i-C? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/49 "2016-06-20T19:41:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > There’s a (blatantly) lesbian couple in Dumas’ _The Count of Monte Cristo_, but I don’t think they made it into any of the film versions. Admittedly this was likely more down to there already being way too many other characters and their story being easy to excise without affecting any other subplots than to concerns about their sexuality. At 1844, the Count has Carmilla beat, I have to admit. Though with only a minor secondary character, so Carmilla still holds the age prize for gay leads - so far. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/50 "2016-06-20T19:58:39Z")
There’s a subplot in Dicken’s _Little Dorrit_, where a middle class young woman’s maid Tattycorum, raised since childhood with her mistress, abruptly runs off with the mysterious, man-hating Miss Wade. Miss Wade turns out to be a villain, and towards the end of the book, Tattycorum comes back to her household, having been turned off by Wade’s schemes and general attitude. Miss Wade, IIRC, is crushed to death by a house. I’m almost certainly reading too much into it, but damn if it didn’t read like a lesbian seduction when I read it in college twenty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_John\_Marcej](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Richard\_John\_Marcej](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_John_Marcej)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/51 "2016-06-20T20:42:59Z")
In 1976 NBC had announced on their upcoming prime time schedule a half hour comedy starring stand-up comedian David Brenner called _ **"Snip"** _ (it was loosely based on the Warren Beatty movie _ **"Shampoo"** _) NBC cancelled it at the last minute (so late that TV Guide still had it featured in it’s Fall Preview issue) and rumor has it they did so because it was going to feature an openly gay character as a regular on the show. This would have been a full year before Billy Crystal’s Jody on _ **"Soap"** _. They’d completed seven episodes and to this day it’s never been shown in the United States, though some were aired overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/52 "2016-06-21T02:06:17Z")
Go back far enough and you’re dealing with authors who likely had very different ideas about friendship, love, and sexuality than we do today. This doesn’t necessarily mean a character in an older work of fiction _wasn’t_ intended to be something other than heterosexual, but it’s not always easy to tell. IMHO Le Fanu did intend to suggest that the title character in “Carmilla” had romantic or sexual feelings for Laura (the narrator), because it’s explicit in the text that Laura herself thinks Carmilla’s behavior goes beyond ordinary friendliness. Laura says she’s confused by Carmilla’s professions of love, pointing out that they’re not even related, and briefly wonders if Carmilla could possibly be a young man in disguise who’s trying to woo her. So this plainly isn’t a case of “that’s just how people talked then.” In other cases the author’s intent is less obvious. In Shakespeare’s _Twelfth Night_ even if you ignore the love triangle plot centered on the cross-dressing heroine (which does eventually work out heterosexually for all involved), there’s a secondary character named Antonio who’s difficult to interpret. He rescues Viola’s brother Sebastian from the shipwreck and from that point on is utterly devoted to him, repeatedly declaring his love and putting himself into danger for Sebastian’s sake. When he believes Sebastian has betrayed him, he says he was bewitched by Sebastian’s physical beauty and hadn’t realized that he had such an ugly character. By modern standards this doesn’t make much sense unless Antonio is romantically infatuated with Sebastian…especially since Antonio is one of the only characters in the play who never expresses any interest in the opposite sex. I suppose it’s anyone’s guess what Shakespeare intended, but as far as I can tell until relatively recently this character was considered simply an example of a generous and devoted friend. I took a quick look at Bowdler’s _Family Shakespeare_ online and Antonio’s declarations of love don’t seem to have been edited, so presumably there was nothing about them that seemed “inappropriate” by early 19th century standards. ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/53 "2016-06-21T05:28:45Z")
I think the movie _The Gay Deceivers_ (1969) should be mentioned here, because the gay characters in it were basically portrayed as “cool,” while the straight characters in it were portrayed as dopey or venal. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/54 "2016-06-21T07:49:23Z")
Probably unheard of by most Americans (and anyone else outside the Commonwealth) [Julian and Sandy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_and_Sandy) were **very** popular characters in the UK and the Commonwealth, and also very obviously gay (and portrayed by actors who were very obviously gay). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/55 "2016-06-21T08:29:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > At 1844, the Count has Carmilla beat, I have to admit. > > Though with only a minor secondary character, so Carmilla still holds the age prize for gay leads - so far. For reference, the character is Eugénie Danglars, daughter of one of the main villains of the piece. Her father betroths her to first one man then another, but she runs off (in male drag) with her “music instructor” Louise d’Armilly. One supposes that the two of them could just be really, really close friends, but Dumas drops a ridiculous amount of hints. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/56 "2016-06-21T13:28:53Z")
Night Court had episodes pretty early on in its run which included a gay man who’s treated completely normally, and a transsexual, and a later season had an episode with a similarly normal-treated lesbian. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/57 "2016-06-21T13:47:39Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Go back far enough and you’re dealing with authors who likely had very different ideas about friendship, love, and sexuality than we do today. This doesn’t necessarily mean a character in an older work of fiction _wasn’t_ intended to be something other than heterosexual, but it’s not always easy to tell. > > IMHO Le Fanu did intend to suggest that the title character in “Carmilla” had romantic or sexual feelings for Laura (the narrator), because it’s explicit in the text that Laura herself thinks Carmilla’s behavior goes beyond ordinary friendliness. Laura says she’s confused by Carmilla’s professions of love, pointing out that they’re not even related, and briefly wonders if Carmilla could possibly be a young man in disguise who’s trying to woo her. So this plainly isn’t a case of “that’s just how people talked then.” > > In other cases the author’s intent is less obvious. In Shakespeare’s _Twelfth Night_ even if you ignore the love triangle plot centered on the cross-dressing heroine (which does eventually work out heterosexually for all involved), there’s a secondary character named Antonio who’s difficult to interpret. He rescues Viola’s brother Sebastian from the shipwreck and from that point on is utterly devoted to him, repeatedly declaring his love and putting himself into danger for Sebastian’s sake. When he believes Sebastian has betrayed him, he says he was bewitched by Sebastian’s physical beauty and hadn’t realized that he had such an ugly character. > > By modern standards this doesn’t make much sense unless Antonio is romantically infatuated with Sebastian…especially since Antonio is one of the only characters in the play who never expresses any interest in the opposite sex. I suppose it’s anyone’s guess what Shakespeare intended, but as far as I can tell until relatively recently this character was considered simply an example of a generous and devoted friend. I took a quick look at Bowdler’s _Family Shakespeare_ online and Antonio’s declarations of love don’t seem to have been edited, so presumably there was nothing about them that seemed “inappropriate” by early 19th century standards. That’s a very good point. It is a seriously difficult task to decipher whether a character from an earlier era is really what we would consider today as “gay” or not, simply because in earlier culture, friendship and sexuality was often regarded quite differently. To provide a historical example - the tempestuous relationship between Sarah Churchill, Duchess of Marlborough, and Queen Anne: were they in a sense lovers, or just very eccentric (by today’s standards) friends? It is interesting to note that, when they fell out (in part because Queen Anne replaced Sarah with Sarah’s younger cousin in her affections!), Sarah basically accused Anne of “unnatural” affections for her cousin. Reading the letters between the Sarah and Anne, they were certainly physically affectionate - lots of ‘longings for embraces’, that sort of thing; but of course, that doesn’t mean sexual. The fact that after they fell out, Sarah chose to wound Anne by accusing her of lesbianism (though not using that term) is interesting - it at least shows that the concept was understood at the time. However, there is no absolutely conclusive proof - and both Sarah and Anne were, allegedly, devoted to their husbands, for what that is worth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/58 "2016-06-21T14:42:47Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > There was also an episode of All in the Family, in which the Meathead told Archie that a photographer acquaintance of Archie’s from the bar he went to sometimes, was gay. Archie didn’t believe him, and told the guy about it as a joke, while they armwrestled. The dude told Archie “He’s right” and Archie’s mouth drops open as he realizes he’s holding hands with a gay guy. They also did one where Archie and Edith are looking forward to inheriting the antique silver tea set that instead winds up with, well, the deceased’s longtime roommate, because what they had was ‘like a marriage’. (It takes Edith a while to realize what they’re having a conversation about, but she gets there eventually.) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/59 "2016-06-21T14:45:50Z")
Bob Hope they say was secretly gay and in some of his early work you’ll see him accidentally kiss other men and do very effeminate dance moves. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771/60 "2016-06-21T21:31:33Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Bob Hope they say was secretly gay and in some of his early work you’ll see him accidentally kiss other men and do very effeminate dance moves. Really? The same Bob Hope who was possibly married to two women at once, who had two very well known heterosexual affairs, and who, [according to male prostitute Scotty Bowers, liked “high-class, expensive ladies”?](http://stargayzing.com/the-truth-comes-out-the-sexual-secrets-of-the-golden-age-of-hollywoods-gentleman-hustler-revealed/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/early-mainstream-media-portrayals-of-lgbt-characters/757771.md?page=4)