# East Africans more "civilized" than West Africans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2013, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107 "2013-02-02T07:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/21 "2013-02-02T19:31:27Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Could you obtain a cite? I don’t think Burton singled out Somalis for being more savage then any other people he met on his journeys (19th cent British explorers thought a good majority of the world was savage). Burton didn’t go out of his way to tag any of the peoples he met “savage” - you’re thinking of the more usual British explorer of that period. Burton is famous for learning languages, cultures and customs. (Not that he always admired them, but he never “insisted the natives speak English” in any form.) As the Somalis overran Burton’s first expeditionary camp on the Somali shore, killed his partner, grievously wounded Speke by torture, and jammed a javelin through Burton’s face, he had a low opinion of them. When he finally visited Harar later on, the Arab-African traders who ran the city were unsurprised at what happened to him in the coastal strip, which they avoided except with large, well-manned and -armed caravans. RFB’s _First Footsteps in East Africa_, if you need more. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/22 "2013-02-02T19:52:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I said Japan is one of the most civilized places in the world, especially in Asia. > > I’m not finding how this is at all a controversial statement. Not quite: what you actually finished the sentence with was “…especially compared to its Asian counterparts.” I’m not entering the fray here, just speculating on what he took issue with, which could be interpreted as dissing Japan’s neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/23 "2013-02-02T19:54:49Z")
Moving this thread to Great Debates, with apologies to Colibri. I believe that this sort of discussion needs more accountability than humble opinions. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/24 "2013-02-02T20:09:30Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > Burton didn’t go out of his way to tag any of the peoples he met “savage” - you’re thinking of the more usual British explorer of that period. Burton is famous for learning languages, cultures and customs. (Not that he always admired them, but he never “insisted the natives speak English” in any form.) > > As the Somalis overran Burton’s first expeditionary camp on the Somali shore, killed his partner, grievously wounded Speke by torture, and jammed a javelin through Burton’s face, he had a low opinion of them. > > When he finally visited Harar later on, the Arab-African traders who ran the city were unsurprised at what happened to him in the coastal strip, which they avoided except with large, well-manned and -armed caravans. > > RFB’s _First Footsteps in East Africa_, if you need more. Thanks. It’s quite unfortunate that they were so scared of the eastern coast when it was Emperor [Menelik II](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menelik_II) of Ethiopia who came from the western side to sack [the walled city of Harar](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1189) and incorporate it into his growing empire a little over 40 years later. Such is history. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/25 "2013-02-02T20:10:26Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Not quite: what you actually finished the sentence with was “…especially compared to its Asian counterparts.” I’m not entering the fray here, just speculating on what he took issue with, which could be interpreted as dissing Japan’s neighbors. I didn’t say Japan is the most civilized or the only country that is civilized. I said it was one of the most. Given that many Asian countries are quite familiar with third-world level poverty (isn’t there a thread over-yonder about cannibalistic North Koreans?), Japan stands out. This was especially true back in the days of the Nanking Massacre. I should have said “especially compared to some of its Asian counterparts”. Mea culpa. But that mistake hardly warrants a drive-by rolly eyes, like my greater point was incorrect or something. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/26 "2013-02-02T20:13:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I didn’t say Japan is the most civilized or the only country that is civilized. I said it was one of the most. Given that many Asian countries are quite familiar with third-world level poverty (isn’t there a thread over-yonder about cannibalistic North Koreans?), Japan stands out. This was especially true back in the days of the Nanking Massacre. > > I should have said “especially compared to some of its Asian counterparts”. Mea culpa. But that mistake hardly warrants a drive-by rolly eyes, like my greater point was incorrect or something. Works for me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/27 "2013-02-02T20:15:16Z")
I think both East Africa and West Africa are far too large and contain far too many countries, cultures and languages to make such classifications anything but grossly simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/28 "2013-02-02T20:21:24Z")
Both are quite “civilized,” having been organized into agricultural communities for thousands of years. East and West Africa are made out of countries, each with their own unique history, geography, tensions, and modern politics. Sierra Leone, for example, has gone through some pretty brutal times, while Ghana has been pretty relaxed. I don’t think it’s meaningful to make broader comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/29 "2013-02-02T20:41:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think both East Africa and West Africa are far too large and contain far too many countries, cultures and languages to make such classifications anything but grossly simplistic. Yeah, well seeing as the thread starter is 1. VERY new to this board 2. posted one VERY inflammatory OP 3. posted nothing since… It might be safe to say that this thread was a “drive-by” trolling. Either way I see no reason why we can’t inject fact and history into it. Its just sad that we get so few chances to honestly discuss African history/politics on this board without ahistorical idiots and racialists gleefully shitting in the threads non-stop with their “one-minded” agenda. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/30 "2013-02-02T20:58:19Z")
They should engage in more civilized methods of slaughter, like high altitude bombing. ---
**Author:** ![sunstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunstone/32/3372_2.png) [@sunstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunstone)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/31 "2013-02-02T22:28:07Z")
I remember the Mau Mau uprisings in Kenya and the terror instilled by it. Recently the actions of the British have come to light. Both sides did horrible things. Mau Mau had machetes, and the British had armed forces and concentration camps. Google Mau Mau and you will be surprised. Here is a link to get you started: [http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article3650160.ece](http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article3650160.ece) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/32 "2013-02-03T02:02:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I didn’t say Japan is the most civilized or the only country that is civilized. I said it was one of the most. Given that many Asian countries are quite familiar with third-world level poverty (isn’t there a thread over-yonder about cannibalistic North Koreans?), Japan stands out. This was especially true back in the days of the Nanking Massacre. > > I should have said “especially compared to some of its Asian counterparts”. Mea culpa. But that mistake hardly warrants a drive-by rolly eyes, like my greater point was incorrect or something. Well, no worries, but in your original statement you didn’t say “one of the most” or “some.” Leaving aside the very recent problems of warlordism and revolution in China, which Japan itself had a very large hand in creating, I’d find it very surprising that anyone would assert that Japan was a “more civilized” country than any of its near neighbors–except in the ugly “Social Darwinian” sense that the Japanese themselves were using to justify their aggression in the first place. Put it this way: given the time and place you were talking about, replace “Japan” with “Germany” and “Asian” with “European” and you might get a glimmer of the reason for the :dubious:. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/33 "2013-02-03T02:59:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I didn’t say Japan is the most civilized or the only country that is civilized. I said it was one of the most. Given that many Asian countries are quite familiar with third-world level poverty (isn’t there a thread over-yonder about cannibalistic North Koreans?), Japan stands out. This was especially true back in the days of the Nanking Massacre. > > I should have said “especially compared to some of its Asian counterparts”. Mea culpa. But that mistake hardly warrants a drive-by rolly eyes, like my greater point was incorrect or something. Perhaps you meant “most developed” or “most industrialized”. I’m not sure what makes a country more or less “civilized” than another if they both represent “civilizations”-- that is, a level of society with governments, writing, division of labor, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/34 "2013-02-03T04:20:09Z")
Well, I know that Ethiopia, right next door to Somalia, was the one nation in sub-Saharan Africa to independently develop a written language; there’s one element of civilization right there. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/35 "2013-02-03T16:03:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, I know that Ethiopia, right next door to Somalia, was the one nation in sub-Saharan Africa to independently develop a written language; there’s one element of civilization right there. The [Ge’ez script](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge'ez_script) actually pre-dates the modern nation of Ethiopia and was developed in the [kingdom of Aksum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum) for the (now dead) [Ge’ez language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge%27ez_language); however the script is still used by many of it’s [daughter languages](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Semitic_languages.svg) currently spoken in the Horn of Africa (kinda like how the Latin script is still used for modern European languages). Also of note, there’s quite [a few written scripts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_systems_of_Africa) developed in Africa; everything from the [anciently dead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meroitic_script) to the [brand new](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandombe_alphabet). I, personly, find [Vai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vai_syllabary) and [N’Ko](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%27Ko) to be very interesting. However, the most common script in use for most of Africa has been [Ajami](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_script) (Arabic adaptations) in traditionally Islamic areas and various Latin based scripts since the colonial era. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/36 "2013-02-03T17:15:02Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > The [Ge’ez script](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge'ez_script) actually pre-dates the modern nation of Ethiopia and was developed in the [kingdom of Aksum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum) for the (now dead) [Ge’ez language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge%27ez_language); however the script is still used by many of it’s [daughter languages](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Semitic_languages.svg) currently spoken in the Horn of Africa (kinda like how the Latin script is still used for modern European languages). > > Also of note, there’s quite [a few written scripts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_systems_of_Africa) developed in Africa; everything from the [anciently dead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meroitic_script) to the [brand new](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandombe_alphabet). I, personly, find [Vai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vai_syllabary) and [N’Ko](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%27Ko) to be very interesting. However, the most common script in use for most of Africa has been [Ajami](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_script) (Arabic adaptations) in traditionally Islamic areas and various Latin based scripts since the colonial era. Yes, but, **before** the colonial period, there was no writing in sub-Saharan Africa outside the Sudan/Ethiopia/Somalia region, except for Arabic-derived script in Muslim regions. I ran a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264698) asking why not back in 2004. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/37 "2013-02-03T18:01:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, but, **before** the colonial period, there was no writing in sub-Saharan Africa outside the Sudan/Ethiopia/Somalia region, except for Arabic-derived script in Muslim regions. I ran a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264698) asking why not back in 2004. Interesting thread. However, I don’t understand why you cut out all African areas with a strong documented history of literacy 1. the horn of Africa, 2. all Islamic areas of Africa and then 3. limit the discussion to **pre** -colonialism? IMHO you’re really no longer talking about Africa as we know it, but limiting the discussion **solely** to central and southern parts, pre-1800’s. There’s not much to say except that these specific areas were only intermittently exposed to the outside world as they didn’t lay on any trade routes, thus they did not get exposed to commonly used technologies. Not much else. An expanded discussion could talk about how in the 1600’s Ajami was used from the western ([Hausa](http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hausa.htm), [Yoruba](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoruba_language#Writing_system)) to the eastern part of Africa ([kiswahili](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utendi_wa_Tambuka)). This was neither unique or limited to Africa as Arabic based scripts were the norm for the entire Islamic world from [Turkey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_alphabet) to [Northern India](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu). Also if you expanded the discussion to **post** -colonialism you could learn about the rise of widespread literacy that came with the almost universal adoption of modified Latin based scripts; of which is neither unique or limited to Africa as this has occurred throughout the modern world from [Vietnam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_alphabet) to [South America](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quichua_language) (Hell even English itself stole the Latin script for its own use). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/38 "2013-02-03T18:08:41Z")
IOW, there was no writing except in places where there was writing. Fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/39 "2013-02-03T18:09:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, but, **before** the colonial period, there was no writing in sub-Saharan Africa outside the Sudan/Ethiopia/Somalia region, except for Arabic-derived script in Muslim regions. I ran a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264698) asking why not back in 2004. I guess what I’m trying to say is that when you (seemingly) cut out all evidence to the contrary you get the very answers you cooked. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107/40 "2013-02-04T15:13:31Z")
In reading **BrainGlutton** ’s old thread, it seems that **Tamerlane** beat me to the punch by ~9 years (that’s “skillz”). > [@Why did most pre-colonial nations of sub-Saharan Africa have no written language?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-pre-colonial-nations-of-sub-saharan-africa-have-no-written-language/253407/37): > > But that aside, my understanding is that at least a few languages _were_ being written in Arabic script by the time of the European conquest. The Hausa were literate in Arabic from the 15th century and by at least the early 19th Hausa itself was being written in Ajami, an adaptation of Arabic script ( remember they weren’t brought under European control until the late 19th ). I believe Swahili literature dates back even further, to the early 18th. > [@orcenio](#): > > This was neither unique or limited to Africa as Arabic based scripts were the norm for the entire Islamic world from [Turkey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_alphabet) to [Northern India](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu). That should probably be [Turkey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_alphabet) to [Indonesia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawi_alphabet), but like Turkey (and most of Africa) Indonesia currently uses a [Latin based script](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_alphabet). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-africans-more-civilized-than-west-africans/649107.md?page=3)