# "East Asian Civilization'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173 "2012-05-07T15:10:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/61 "2012-05-12T00:10:50Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > What if we all gave consistently wrong answers ? > We’be responsible for him failing his homework assignment . So what? Our job here is to entertain the prof. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/62 "2012-05-12T00:16:22Z")
So when the Mongol hordes invaded the Australian mainland mounted on miniature woolly mamoths, armed with their dreaded Claymores; to spread the worship of Jupiter best and greatest to the peaceful Aztecs… ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/63 "2012-05-12T07:14:17Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Pretty much the only available historical explanation for the Yayoi is that they were horse-borne warriors who arrived in Japan from Korea, and ethnically they are the closest known relatives of modern-day Japanese, so there’s presumably _some_ relationship. IIRC, the horse-rider theory is separate from the Korean-origin theory and only argues that horse riders from Korea conquered Japan during the Kofun period, not that those horse riders were the origin of the Yayoi. It’s not widely accepted in any case (or at least, wasn’t when I was a student 5 years ago). AFAIK, there still hasn’t been any definitive linguistic link found between the two. I remember reading an interesting journal article suggesting commonalities between Japanese and the language of ancient Goguryeo, but with so little known about proto-Korean, it’s really hard to say. ---
**Author:** ![DearestDane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@DearestDane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DearestDane)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/64 "2012-05-12T07:40:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why is East Asia located west of California? Shouldn’t it be West Asia? Countries Like Turkey and Iran could be referred to as Even More West Asia. And Europe would be the far west. (Which, incidentally, it used to be.) ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/65 "2012-05-13T05:14:04Z")
> [@DearestDane](#): > > And Europe would be the far west. (Which, incidentally, it used to be.) Well, that explains why I have to go to the East Coast to face Western Europe and to the West Coast to face Eastern Asia… But all you historical raconteurs forgot the vital role of Commodore Perry and his steampunk navy in forcing trade on the Japanese in the 1850s. It was th shock of his example that led to the Meiji Restoration, the adoption of Really Really West Asian technology, and the rise of the Gundam Suit. By 1950, the struggles of dealing with mutant sea creatures had pushed the Japanese far ahead of other Asian countries in technique, and it wasn’t until 2010 that Chinese trains caught up. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/66 "2012-05-13T12:55:48Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > The Yayoi people (which is probably what he meant to say) displaced the then-dominant Jomon people (of whom the Ainu are likely distant descendants) in 300 BC. Y-chromosome haplogrouping tells a fascinating story, though it isn’t always clear how to “connect the dots.” Japan has three common Y-haplogroups: [ul][li] D2. (Almost all Ainu are D2, but the type is also common among non-Ainu Japanese … presumably agnatic descendants of Ainu.) Outside Japan, D is very rare (found in Tibet and Andaman Islands) and probably derives from the earliest intrusion of modern man to Eastern Asia.[/li][li] C1. Related to C2,3,4,5 found in India, Australia, New Guinea, N.E. Asia, etc. and also very ancient. (C3 is especially interesting, found in Mongols and Apache-Navajo, among others.)[/li][li] O2a. Part of the O group which is now dominant all over East and Southeast Asia, and is more recent than D or C.[/li][/ul] I suppose there were two distinct pre-historic migrations, though only an expert should speculate whether C1==Jomon distinct from Ainu. The [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup) shows most of the above; [the ISOGG tree](http://www.isogg.org/tree/) gives the most detailed “semi-official” look. I think there are various webpages that try to “connect the dots” to reconstruct prehistory. ---
**Author:** ![supery00n](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@supery00n](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supery00n)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/67 "2012-05-14T01:24:57Z")
It was mainly a slowness in embracing modern scientific and technological advances, and a lack of openness to other cultures, with the exception of Japan in the second half of the 19th century. There was a fundamental underestimation of the extent to which the world had changed. Before they knew it, Asia had fallen behind economically, militarily, and technologically. The British, French, German, Russian, Portuguese, Dutch, and Spanish Empires gained their power due to a combination of exploration, trade, colonization, and eventually industrialization. East Asian nations had fallen too far behind to become colonial powers themselves (again, with the exception of Japan), and were in the case of Korea and Vietnam, themselves colonized. The gap between East Asia and Europe lies in the events since 1492 and Columbus’ discovery of the New World that for the latter, unleashed a revolutionary societal and scientific advances, but for the former did not lead to an outward expansion of ideas and people, but rather an inward withdrawal, a sort of “isolationism.” The worldview that predominates today, and the advances that were made scientifically, technologically, and materially, were made almost exclusively by Europeans until 1850 or so. In my view, this illustrates the importance of exploration, discovery, and going beyond the horizon to find something new. That combination of curiosity and courage is what ultimately creates wealth, growth, and in the end, empires of wealth and power. The East Asian nations, today, have awoken. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/68 "2012-05-14T03:13:37Z")
> [@supery00n](#): > > It was mainly a slowness in embracing modern scientific and technological advances, and a lack of openness to other cultures, with the exception of Japan in the second half of the 19th century. > > There was a fundamental underestimation of the extent to which the world had changed. Before they knew it, Asia had fallen behind economically, militarily, and technologically. The British, French, German, Russian, Portuguese, Dutch, and Spanish Empires gained their power due to a combination of exploration, trade, colonization, and eventually industrialization. East Asian nations had fallen too far behind to become colonial powers themselves (again, with the exception of Japan), and were in the case of Korea and Vietnam, themselves colonized. > > The gap between East Asia and Europe lies in the events since 1492 and Columbus’ discovery of the New World that for the latter, unleashed a revolutionary societal and scientific advances, but for the former did not lead to an outward expansion of ideas and people, but rather an inward withdrawal, a sort of “isolationism.” The worldview that predominates today, and the advances that were made scientifically, technologically, and materially, were made almost exclusively by Europeans until 1850 or so. > > In my view, this illustrates the importance of exploration, discovery, and going beyond the horizon to find something new. That combination of curiosity and courage is what ultimately creates wealth, growth, and in the end, empires of wealth and power. > > The East Asian nations, today, have awoken. 🙂 From From [_The Problem of China,_](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13940/13940-h/13940-h.htm) by Bertrand Russell (1922): > [@](#): > > In the year 1793, a British ambassador, Lord Macartney, arrived in China, to request further trade facilities and the establishment of a permanent British diplomatic representative. The Emperor at this time was Chien Lung, the best of the Manchu dynasty, a cultivated man, a patron of the arts, and an exquisite calligraphist. (One finds specimens of his writing in all sorts of places in China.) His reply to King George III is given by Backhouse and Bland.[25] I wish I could quote it all, but some extracts must suffice. It begins: > > > [@](#): > > > > You, O King, live beyond the confines of many seas, nevertheless, impelled by your humble desire to partake of the benefits of our civilization, you have despatched a mission respectfully bearing your memorial… To show your devotion, you have also sent offerings of your country’s produce. I have read your memorial: the earnest terms in which it is cast reveal a respectful humility on your part, which is highly praiseworthy. > > He goes on to explain, with the patient manner appropriate in dealing with an importunate child, why George III’s desires cannot possibly be gratified. An ambassador, he assures him, would be useless, for: > > > [@](#): > > > > If you assert that your reverence for our Celestial Dynasty fills you with a desire to acquire our civilization, our ceremonies and code of laws differ so completely from your own that, even if your Envoy were able to acquire the rudiments of our civilization, you could not possibly transplant our manners and customs to your alien soil. Therefore, however adept the Envoy might become, nothing would be gained thereby. > > > > Swaying the wide world, I have but one aim in view, namely, to maintain a perfect governance and to fulfil the duties of the State; strange and costly objects do not interest me. I … have no use for your country’s manufactures. …It behoves you, O King, to respect my sentiments and to display even greater devotion and loyalty in future, so that, by perpetual submission to our Throne, you may secure peace and prosperity for your country hereafter. > > He can understand the English desiring the produce of China, but feels that they have nothing worth having to offer in exchange: > > “Our Celestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its own borders. There was therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce. But as the tea, silk and porcelain which the Celestial Empire produces are absolute necessities to European nations and to yourselves,” the limited trade hitherto permitted at Canton is to continue. > > He would have shown less favour to Lord Macartney, but “I do not forget the lonely remoteness of your island, cut off from the world by intervening wastes of sea, nor do I overlook your excusable ignorance of the usages of our Celestial Empire.” He concludes with the injunction: “Tremblingly obey and show no negligence!” > > What I want to suggest is that no one understands China until this document has ceased to seem absurd. The Romans claimed to rule the world, and what lay outside their Empire was to them of no account. The Empire of Chien Lung was more extensive, with probably a larger population; it had risen to greatness at the same time as Rome, and had not fallen, but invariably defeated all its enemies, either by war or by absorption. Its neighbours were comparatively barbarous, except the Japanese, who acquired their civilization by slavish imitation of China. The view of Chien Lung was no more absurd than that of Alexander the Great, sighing for new worlds to conquer when he had never even heard of China, where Confucius had been dead already for a hundred and fifty years. Nor was he mistaken as regards trade: China produces everything needed for the happiness of its inhabitants, and we have forced trade upon them solely for our benefit, giving them in exchange only things which they would do better without. > > Unfortunately for China, its culture was deficient in one respect, namely science. In art and literature, in manners and customs, it was at least the equal of Europe; at the time of the Renaissance, Europe would not have been in any way the superior of the Celestial Empire. There is a museum in Peking where, side by side with good Chinese art, may be seen the presents which Louis XIV made to the Emperor when he wished to impress him with the splendour of Le Roi Soleil. Compared to the Chinese things surrounding them, they were tawdry and barbaric. The fact that Britain has produced Shakespeare and Milton, Locke and Hume, and all the other men who have adorned literature and the arts, does not make us superior to the Chinese. What makes us superior is Newton and Robert Boyle and their scientific successors. They make us superior by giving us greater proficiency in the art of killing. It is easier for an Englishman to kill a Chinaman than for a Chinaman to kill an Englishman. Therefore our civilization is superior to that of China, and Chien Lung is absurd. When we had finished with Napoleon, we soon set to work to demonstrate this proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/69 "2012-05-14T21:15:00Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Are the horse flies really that big in Korea? Because my dog likes to catch the ones here on the wing, but they are no bigger than cocktail shrimp. The horse flies aren’t that big but the Korean horses back then could fly (and use chopsticks). They aren’t around anymore because people believed that eating their spleens gave you incredible sexual prowess. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173/70 "2012-05-18T01:27:05Z")
In Samuel P. Huntington’s [“Clash of Civilizations”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations) theory, “Sinic” civilization includes China, the Koreas, and Vietnam, but not Japan (a civilization all its own) nor Burma/Thailand/Laos/Cambodia (all part of the “Buddhist” civilization). FWIW. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-asian-civilization/621173.md?page=3)