# East Sea vs Sea of Japan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896 "2012-06-12T11:37:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/21 "2012-06-16T15:47:53Z")
[Google](http://i.imgur.com/Pjwet.jpg) doesn’t want to choose sides, either. I’ve never even heard of the “West Sea” before (Yellow Sea). It does the same thing with the Persian Gulf / Arabian Gulf. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/22 "2012-06-16T17:58:17Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > The only thing pettier than the East Sea/Sea of Japan fight is the one about Dokdo, a tiny tiny disputed island that Korea has a huge hard-on for. The fight over Dokdo is a bit more relevant considering its actual territory, especially if one considers the fisheries and other marine resources present in the area. Not to mention you don’t see the Germans whining about East Prussia or Silesia despite those areas being German for centuries unlike Dokdo. > [@RickJay](#): > > Was it called “the East Sea” in English? Ever? Somehow I doubt that. > > If the Koreans want to call it The East Sea when speaking Korean in Korea, well, that makes sense. In the English-speaking world, where “The East Sea” has no clear meaning, that body of water has been called “The Sea of Japan” for a hell of a long time. > > And frankly, “Sea of Japan” makes actual sense on an international level. “The East Sea” is utterly meaningless and can logically be used to describe any number of bodies of water. “Sea of Japan” makes perfect sense to everybody because the sea is quite literally defined and created by the existence of the Japanese archipelago. As noted below it was used in most maps until well into the 19th Century. And one can argue the terms “North Sea” in Europe is equally vague. Once the term “East Sea” become familiar, this will be no problem. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Original name by who? The Koreans always seemed to call it the East Sea. Until like the 19th century, the Japanese didn’t seem to have a name for it. In Europe, though, the name seems to have been either “Sea of Japan”, “Korean Sea” or “China Sea”. And as far back as 1602, when Matteo Ricci made a map of the world for the Chinese Emperor, he called the sea the Sea of Japan. So I don’t think it’s a bright line, black and white thing. I also agree that it semes like a minor thing to fight over, up there with the Liancourts. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea\_of\_Japan\_naming\_dispute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute) In the chart if one scrolls down, a clear majority of maps did not use “Sea of Japan” until the 19th Century when Japan became influential thanks to the Meiji Restoration. In a ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/23 "2012-06-16T18:16:10Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The fight over Dokdo is a bit more relevant considering its actual territory, especially if one considers the fisheries and other marine resources present in the area. Not to mention you don’t see the Germans whining about East Prussia or Silesia despite those areas being German for centuries unlike Dokdo. Well, that’s probably because the Germans have a pretty good idea that people are not going to look very favorably on their claims to Polish territory after the last time. 😃 I agree that the Dodko thing isn’t as silly as it looks at first blush, though. It’s not necessarily the islands themselves that are in contention, it’s the extended territorial water claims that come with them. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/24 "2012-06-16T18:57:32Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > [Google](http://i.imgur.com/Pjwet.jpg) doesn’t want to choose sides, either. I’ve never even heard of the “West Sea” before (Yellow Sea). It does the same thing with the Persian Gulf / Arabian Gulf. This sort of thing is a big deal among digital map makers (I work in the industry). There are many places where the name of some geographic entity is disputed, and you can get into big trouble if you give it the “wrong” name. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/25 "2012-06-16T18:59:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, that’s probably because the Germans have a pretty good idea that people are not going to look very favorably on their claims to Polish territory after the last time. 😃 I agree that the Dodko thing isn’t as silly as it looks at first blush, though. It’s not necessarily the islands themselves that are in contention, it’s the extended territorial water claims that come with them. The silly thing about the Liancourt Rocks is not that they’re disputed. It’s that so many Koreans are obsessed with the issue even though they’re the ones in control of the islands. They’ve already won! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/26 "2012-06-16T20:27:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In the chart if one scrolls down, a clear majority of maps did not use “Sea of Japan” until the 19th Century when Japan became influential thanks to the Meiji Restoration. In a If you read the article, it looks like the switch to “Sea of Japan” happened before the Meiji Restoration, at the beginning of the 19th century. From the article: > [@](#): > > The invention of the marine chronometer in the late 18th century enabled Western explorers, such as Jean Francois de Galaup from France, William Robert Broughton from Britain, and Adam Johann von Krusenstern (Ivan Fyodorovich Kruzenshtern) from Russia, to measure time and longitudes on the sea precisely and map the detailed shape of the Sea of Japan. Krusenstern was an admiral and explorer, who led the first Russian circumnavigation of the globe. According to Japanese records, it was Krusenstern who popularized the name “Mer du Japon” (Sea of Japan) in the West. In his work “Reise um die Welt in den Jahren” (1812), he wrote, “People also call this sea area the Sea of Korea, but because only a small part of this sea touches the Korean coast, it is better to name it the Sea of Japan.” The original book was published in St. Petersburg in German and Russian, translated into Dutch, French, Swedish, Italian and English, and distributed widely among Europe. As a result, the international name of the sea changed from no name to the Sea of Japan, on the maps drawn by countries other than Japan or Korea during the 17th to 20th centuries. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/27 "2012-06-17T00:17:13Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In the chart if one scrolls down, a clear majority of maps did not use “Sea of Japan” until the 19th Century when Japan became influential thanks to the Meiji Restoration. In a Almost all maps written in English have always referred to it as “Sea of Japan,” and according to the very survey you’re referring to the term “East Sea” has never been popular. I see no reason for Anglophones to change now. “Sea of Japan” is a perfectly logical and descriptive name. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/28 "2012-06-17T02:34:08Z")
Keep whining and we’ll change it to, “Greater Sea of Vladivostok.” ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/29 "2012-06-17T03:22:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Almost all maps written in English have always referred to it as “Sea of Japan,” and according to the very survey you’re referring to the term “East Sea” has never been popular. I see no reason for Anglophones to change now. “Sea of Japan” is a perfectly logical and descriptive name. I don’t know if it’s relevant here, but it’s still a big problem for those of us trying to maintain a worldwide database of map data, to be used by people in all countries speaking all languages. Then we must consider the feelings of more than Anglophones. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/30 "2012-06-17T03:36:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, that’s probably because the Germans have a pretty good idea that people are not going to look very favorably on their claims to Polish territory after the last time. 😃 I agree that the Dodko thing isn’t as silly as it looks at first blush, though. It’s not necessarily the islands themselves that are in contention, it’s the extended territorial water claims that come with them. China claims them as well. The Diaoyutai Islands. (Then again, China claims a lot of places based on pretty dubious historic evidence.) ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/31 "2012-06-17T07:20:45Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > China claims them as well. The Diaoyutai Islands. > > (Then again, China claims a lot of places based on pretty dubious historic evidence.) I think you’re confusing your specks of land. Dokdo/Takeshima are the specks of land between Ulleung and Oki in the Sea of Japan, not the specks of land between Okinawa and Taiwan (the Diaoyutai/Senkaku) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/32 "2012-06-17T08:07:50Z")
Let’s just throw a scare into a lot of Asians and call it the Western Sea of America’s Future. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/33 "2012-06-17T15:39:24Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Also, there would be no reason for the Koreas to agree on a name, since we are two separate countries. Yeah, but only because of the US. Maybe you should call it the “Sea Next to The Country That the US Defeated and Liberated Us and Then Stuck Around So that We Weren’t Fucking Communists With No Food”. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/34 "2012-06-17T16:05:15Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > I think you’re confusing your specks of land. Dokdo/Takeshima are the specks of land between Ulleung and Oki in the Sea of Japan, not the specks of land between Okinawa and Taiwan (the Diaoyutai/Senkaku) 😃 Shit, I better send a memo. I’m sure a Chinese traveler sometime, most like when the Mongols ruled the earth, left some kind of obscure reference to maybe having been in the same ocean, and ipso facto it’s claimed by China. Get cracking you slackers in Beijing ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/35 "2012-06-17T18:02:08Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Yeah, but only because of the US. Maybe you should call it the “Sea Next to The Country That the US Defeated and Liberated Us and Then Stuck Around So that We Weren’t Fucking Communists With No Food”. You do know we only liberated half the country, right? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/36 "2012-06-18T01:35:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You do know we only liberated half the country, right? The Korean dude just told us it’s two different countries. > [@](#): > > Also, there would be no reason for the Koreas to agree on a name, since we are two separate countries. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/37 "2012-06-18T03:57:42Z")
After the Korean War it was two different countries, yes. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/38 "2012-06-18T06:18:22Z")
NM, not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/39 "2012-06-18T06:40:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > After the Korean War it was two different countries, yes. And before the war too. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896/40 "2012-06-19T07:37:23Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Yeah, but only because of the US. Maybe you should call it the “Sea Next to The Country That the US Defeated and Liberated Us and Then Stuck Around So that We Weren’t Fucking Communists With No Food”. Or maybe we would call it “Sea that is east of the country that was split in two and fucked over by the West.” It would make more sense grammatically, anyway. Not that we don’t appreciate being freed from the threat of Communism. xoxo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/east-sea-vs-sea-of-japan/624896.md?page=3)