# Eat a sandwich! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758 "2006-02-03T00:01:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/81 "2006-02-03T17:53:27Z")
> [@Podkayne](#): > > Know what would be even nicer? If you admitted explicitly that you were wrong and apologized for characterizing all size-12 women as abnormal, overweight and out-of-shape. I did no such thing and I don’t think I need to appologize for saying something I didn’t. Perhaps I wasn’t clear. It’s been my experience that what passes for “normal” these days is what would be termed as average by a bell curve of weight distribution amongst the general US population. I’m hardly the first or last to note that the average weight is going up and that statistics suggest that as many as 50% (correct me if I’m wrong) of people are significantly overweight. So if you, **Podkayne** , can comfortably run 3 miles as a size 12, I submit to you that you are not the average size 12. In fact, I’d say you are unfortunately the exception. Which is much to your credit. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/82 "2006-02-03T18:19:50Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I have seen a lot of girls hurt by the infliction of a skewed “normal” on women’s self-perception. “Won’t somebody please think of the children!” That’s it? That’s your argument? You know, we’re part of a society that (like most human societies) idolizes an ideal. Be it a sport celebrity, pop music celebrity or model/actor celebrity. We put them on pedestals for their skills and appearance and then we try to tear them down for it. It’s schizophrenic but I guess it’s simpler to rip into JS and her ilk as abnormal than take a long hard look at ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/83 "2006-02-03T18:20:43Z")
All this talk of boobs, bras, curves, sizes, and athletics makes my bone stick out! ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/84 "2006-02-03T18:21:42Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > On the same side of that token, I am overweight myself (I’m on the road of fixing this, go me :)) and one time I took my size 0 friend into Lane Bryant with me. My friend really loves their necklaces and wanted to look around while I bought a shirt, you see. Well almost as soon as we walked in the door, the comments started. “What the HELL is that ANOREXIC THING doing in HERE?” “Go eat a sammich, MaryKate!” on and on. These were GROWN WOMEN screaming at a 16 year old child. Oh and that’s not even including the glares, whispers, and pointing. > > Now, if the same fat women that were making comments were to walk into- I dunno- the Limited and were to hear equally offensive comments made about their wide load, they would have thrown a tantrum. Yet, it was perfectly fine to pick on the “skinny chick” who just wasn’t in her environment. I absolutely agree that it’s never OK to harass someone like that. The only reaction I had at all sympathetic is that Lane Bryant is a place where heavier women can feel “safe”, like they are not freaks but catered to, and not have to deal with thinner people giving them the looks. Of course turning that back around makes no sense if you know what that feels like. (Having been a heavy person accompanying my slender chic friend in NYC boutiques was no picnic.) > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Honest question: would you prefer that reports on obesity discuss the profound and deadly mental illness that leads people to overeat? Since that’s one cause, sure. I’ve heard enough people like me express the exact same destructive thought processes I have to know that there is a common disorder like anorexia. Food is “cunning, baffling and powerful” as is said of other drugs of choice. Problem is, you can’t go cold turkey. (heh) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/85 "2006-02-03T18:22:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So if you, **Podkayne** , can comfortably run 3 miles as a size 12, I submit to you that you are not the average size 12. In fact, I’d say you are unfortunately the exception. Which is much to your credit. And if that doesn’t mean that all size 12s are fat and out of shape, what the fuck does it mean? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/86 "2006-02-03T18:24:23Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > If this means I have issues, then fine. I have issues. Don’t for a second think that you don’t, if you consider Ms. Simpson some sort of paragon or example for women. It is statements like these that make me think you do have an issue. Saying I think Ms. Simpson looks fine isn’t the same thing as saying she is a pargon that all women should seek to be like. Thats plainly absurd, and suggest to me that you are clearly irrational about the whole issue. Or disingeneous. You see, I think Jessica there looks just fine. Healthy and good. I don’t know what you look like, but I would likely think you look fine too. Probably healthy and good. I don’t think people should be cookie cutters of each other and strive to be like others, but then again, I am not vitrolic about people that are not like me. I also don’t think making comments about peoples appearances help battle the problem of childrens self images and what they think is ok. That is a parenting issue, IMO, and not one of what somebody looks like, or what you think Jessica is secretely saying is the ideal of women. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/87 "2006-02-03T18:28:27Z")
I have nothing much to add, other than I have big boobs and a flat stomach. I’ve also never had plastic surgery. It’s nice to know that I’m a freak. I think I’ll go slit my wrists now. Well, no, actually not. I just have to say, that pretty well every generalization, including this one, makes the person making it look like a moron. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/88 "2006-02-03T18:35:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s schizophrenic but I guess it’s simpler to rip into JS and her ilk as abnormal than take a long hard look at ourselves. I should clarify before I get crucified for this remark. I’m not arguing that we should all emulate these people at all costs. But I am asking whether perhaps (in this case) the expanding definition of “normal” is somehow helping to contribute to the expantion of waist lines and as such, feeding the vitriol against people who (according to some) spend too much time and effort on being thin and “perfect”. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/89 "2006-02-03T18:38:31Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I have nothing much to add, other than I have big boobs and a flat stomach. I’ve also never had plastic surgery. It’s nice to know that I’m a freak. I too brought up annectdotal evidence to the contrary of her claims, but they are meaningless in her idealization of some grand “normalcy” for women. > [@](#): > > I just have to say, that pretty well every generalization, including this one, makes the person making it look like a moron. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/90 "2006-02-03T18:39:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So if you, **Podkayne** , can comfortably run 3 miles as a size 12, I submit to you that you are not the average size 12. In fact, I’d say you are unfortunately the exception. Which is much to your credit. How big do you think a size 12 is? I’m size 12. Sometimes I’m 14 (and sometimes I’m 10). I’m not hugely tall either - 5’6". I can run 3 miles out the door any time you want. (if I haven’t run for a while, it might be a bit difficult, but I know I can do it.) If I’ve been running with any regularity, I can do 5+ miles. I know several other women my size (or bigger) that can do the same. If I watch what I eat (and drink - wine and beer is what keeps me in a 12/14!), and exercise for an hour a day, 5-7 days a week, I get into size 10s. I don’t get below that unless I give over my life to my body. That is, restrict my diet to small portions of vegetables and lean meat, give up alcohol altogether, and exercise more than an hour a day. That’s pretty damn hard to do when you have a job, a relationship, and a life, and I’d counter anyone who says otherwise. For me, I define “normal” as the body size you end up with if you eat a moderately healthy diet and exercise 3-5 hours a week. I define a moderately healthy diet as one which includes a couple servings of vegetables a day, not a lot of white bread, not a lot of sugar, and reasonable amounts of meat. Three to five hours of exercise a week is anything from brisk walks (which don’t burn that many fewer calories than running), runs, riding a bike, going to the gym, or dancing to DDR on the XBox. Some people do the above and end up a size 2. Some people do it and stay size 14. Either way, they’re living a healthy life, and ultimately that’s what counts, not how you look in the swimsuit. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/91 "2006-02-03T18:44:34Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And if that doesn’t mean that all size 12s are fat and out of shape, what the fuck does it mean? > > :dubious: Yes, I believe that \*a majority \* of size 12’s are out of shape. I’m sure that there is any number of exceptions that you can point to like taller than average or large boned/muscled individuals. For every one of your exceptions I’ll show you ten 5’4" size 12’s that can’t run around the block without getting winded. Take that as an insult if you must. Look, I don’t care if someone is comfortable with themselves as a size 12 or 22. Honestly, I’m absolutely fine with that. I just don’t want to hear them critisize a size 2 as anorexic, particularly if that size 2 puts in considerable daily effort to stay that size and feels healthy/happy doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/92 "2006-02-03T19:00:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Yes, I believe that \*a majority \* of size 12’s are out of shape. I’m sure that there is any number of exceptions that you can point to like taller than average or large boned/muscled individuals. For every one of your exceptions I’ll show you ten 5’4" size 12’s that can’t run around the block without getting winded. Er, isn’t that true of any size? The majority of all sizes are out of shape. As a nation, we don’t exercise enough. I can personally think of several very very skinny women who can’t run a mile (much less 3). Some are just naturally thin, but at least a couple others that I know are thin because they don’t eat right, are stress-junkies, smoke like a chimney, or are drug/alcohol addicts. Thin does not equal healthy, just as chubby or fat doesn’t always equal unhealthy. The majority of Americans probably can’t run 3 miles. Those that can are not always recognizable by their body type. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/93 "2006-02-03T19:07:03Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I really don’t think you’re in a position to tell me what I am. I don’t stigmatize any body type. **Rubystreak** , earlier you said: > [@](#): > > This whole thing started because you said Jessica Simpson looked perfectly normal. If she did not have ginormous boobs and a board-flat stomach, maybe. It’s not abnormal for some women to be very thin, naturally. But those boobs do not match the rest of her and make her look really wrong, NOT normal. Body fat is normal for a woman, and it’s not really normal to have huge deposits of body fat in one place and nowhere else. It is a cartoonish representation of the feminine shape. You called Jessica Simpson’s body type “really wrong, NOT normal” and “cartoonish.” How is that possibly not stigmatizing her body type? Yes, it might be an unusual body type. No, it’s not a body type that I personally find particularly attractive. But when you start calling it “wrong,” you’re stigmatizing it. I think if you laid off with that kind of talk, people would have a lot easier time appreciating the other, very good points you’re making. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/94 "2006-02-03T19:07:35Z")
**QuickSilver,** I think your notion of what a “normal” size 12 is completely screwed up, but I don’t think either of us could prove our feelings on the matter are correct, since cohorts in fitness studies are usually not categorized by dress size. Hmmmm. Gee. I wonder why that is? Until the evidence comes in, please do the courtesy of not attempting to flatter me by telling me that I deserve more credit than other women who are size 12. Whatever kind or encouraging things you say to me now, if you saw me on the street, based on my size, you’d think “There’s a woman who couldn’t run a mile without being winded and spent.” That makes me feel really great about myself. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/95 "2006-02-03T19:15:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe it’s just a difference in personality, but I don’t like people to comment on my body. I don’t like being the subject of attention (which is why I wear baggy clothes.) I probably shouldn’t have emphasised the fact that I liked it (this occured at the time that I was finally diagnosed with profound clinical depression, so anything that resembled props was a good thing to me)as much as the irony that people found the rapid (and unhealthy) change my body was undergoing as positive. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/96 "2006-02-03T19:20:04Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I just have to say, that pretty well every generalization, including this one, makes the person making it look like a moron. What’s moronic is thinking that your body is what everyone should look like. You probably look great and you’re very lucky. Most women I know with big boobs who is over 30 has a tummy. Being a rarity doesn’t make you a freak, and it’d be nice if people stopped putting words in my mouth. > [@Quicksilver](#): > > “Won’t somebody please think of the children!” > > That’s it? That’s your argument? That’s a good part of it. Obviously you’re not thinking of them at all and are totally out of touch with the negative effect that making women like Jessica Simpson an ideal can have on girls. A more flexible definition of healthy and normal would be helpful. > [@Epimetheus](#): > > It is statements like these that make me think you do have an issue. Saying I think Ms. Simpson looks fine isn’t the same thing as saying she is a pargon that all women should seek to be like. Thats plainly absurd, and suggest to me that you are clearly irrational about the whole issue. Or disingeneous. You don’t think she’s held up as an ideal? Idolized by many as having a perfect body? Then you’re the one who’s being disingenuous. > [@](#): > > You see, I think Jessica there looks just fine. Healthy and good. She likely could not have that body without surgery and a staff of professionals helping her, you do realize that. As someone else in this thread said, a normal working person would have to give her life over to her body in order to look that way, and most of us do not have that luxury. It’s not fair to make that the standard when it requirs extraordinary means for most people to look that way. > [@](#): > > I don’t think people should be cookie cutters of each other and strive to be like others, but then again, I am not vitrolic about people that are not like me. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Where did I say everyone should look alike? I said there should be A WIDER RANGE OF WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL AND GOOD. Culturally, there is not a lot of diversity in what is considered normal. I’d like like to see the definition widened, so to speak, to include different shapes and proportions. How is that me saying everyone should look alike? I’m saying not everyone should or can look like Jessica Simpson. Stop turning this into a straw man argument where I’m the one pushing for conformity here. > [@](#): > > what you think Jessica is secretely saying is the ideal of women. It’s not secret at all. Open your eyes and look around. It’s a blatant manipulation of women’s self-perceptions and it’s everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/97 "2006-02-03T19:26:08Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Rubystreak** , earlier you said: > > You called Jessica Simpson’s body type “really wrong, NOT normal” and “cartoonish.” How is that possibly not stigmatizing her body type? I said that because of her big fake boobs on her skinny body. They look really wrong to me because they are NOT natural. I wasn’t taking about her fitness at that point but her surgical alteration into a cartoon character. > [@](#): > > Yes, it might be an unusual body type. No, it’s not a body type that I personally find particularly attractive. But when you start calling it “wrong,” you’re stigmatizing it. I think if you laid off with that kind of talk, people would have a lot easier time appreciating the other, very good points you’re making. I reserve the right to not like how women who alter themselves look. I wish no one felt like she needed to get breast augmentation to feel beautiful or to conform to a certain body type. I don’t think that’s out of line for me to say. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/98 "2006-02-03T19:35:43Z")
> [@Obsidian](#): > > We are getting bigger. Not just fatter, but taller. I have 4 inches on my mom, and six on grandma. How many of us are taller than our parents? That’s got to account for some of the size changes. On average, all adults are two inches taller than their parents. Source: an exhibit in the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History, 26½ years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/99 "2006-02-03T19:44:05Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I said that because of her big fake boobs on her skinny body. **Rubystreak** , that’s not what you said before. I even quoted what you said. Do you really not see how what you said gives other people the impression that you’re criticizing her body-type? Let me offer some more of your quotes from [the thread in question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356858&highlight=Jessica+Simpson): > [@](#): > > The most heinous irony is that Jessica Simpson desperately needs some fat and carbs popped right into her, and she’s the spokesmodel for this inane and vile produuct. > > She’s way too thin. If that’s what you think the normal female body looks like, well, then you’re Pizza Hut’s target market, I think. > > Her arms look like toothpicks. > > Jessica Simpson is emaciated in that picture. I honestly don’t know anyone who really looks like that. > > she looks like a skeleton with two halves of canteloupe stuck to it. > > I don’t think JS looks fit. > > This Pizza Hut commercial is bad enough just showing that disgusting pizza, but then trying to say someone like Jessica Simpson eats it? Please. > > She looked all out of proportion, with jutting ribs and hips, big weird boobs, and no body fat. WOMEN NATURALLY HAVE BODY FAT, esp. women with large breasts. These are all things you said. I do not think I’ve taken any of them out of context. Do you really not see how people are getting the idea that you’re denigrating a certain body type? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758/100 "2006-02-03T19:54:08Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Thin does not equal healthy, just as chubby or fat doesn’t always equal unhealthy. The majority of Americans probably can’t run 3 miles. Those that can are not always recognizable by their body type. Right there, on the nose, exactly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eat-a-sandwich/342758.md?page=6)