# Eating without killing **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 3, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063 "2020-12-03T02:41:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/81 "2020-12-04T12:20:18Z")
Nature is not kind, never has been. The natural world and is essentially a vicious, violent place with pockets of contentment tucked here and there for those that live in it. Life is death and death is life, and like it or not we are a part of the natural world. We as humans have evolved (supposedly) beyond rending prey alive and eating it warm and kicking, but for life to continue something has to die. And in my view death is not a horrible thing in and of itself. The MANNER of death is important, and even more important is the life that precedes it. A minimum of physical and mental pain (I include fear in this) and a swift and preferably painless death is the best that can be achieved in this current world. Frankly, a death by swift killing can be seen as a much kinder thing in the end than a ‘natural’ death from old age. When the body’s systems break down and cease to function correctly the end result can be very, very unpleasant. People and much-loved pets have the advantage of medical treatment and palliative care that can make things a bit better. We can euthanize pets (and occasionally people who want that) to end the pain, but other animals and -and too many humans, really- don’t have that option. Death then is a long not-happy thing. Pain, fear, exhaustion, thirst, temperature extremes … Not pretty. Making lives better, IMO, is more important than avoiding killing. ---
**Author:** ![Jillena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e495f1/32.png) [@Jillena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillena)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/82 "2020-12-04T13:08:03Z")
Thankyou saje ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/83 "2020-12-04T14:46:02Z")
There you go. I gave the ugly wakeup call in harsh terms, @Colibri gave the biological reality and the excellent posts by @ParallelLines & @saje round out the moral / ethical desiderata within the bloody arena we are all stuck in. I too hope @Jillena stays around. Further, as @nelliebly says, I hope your comment about not wanting to live in a world with death-to-live as a feature was hyperbole. You may well _prefer_ that the world was not so. But since it _is_ so, the solution you seem to propose is … unwise. And further does nothing to improve that world. It amounts to clamping one’s eyes shut and pretending. After your passing the world will move bloodily along undisturbed by your extravagant gesture made at great cost to yourself. These are very deep topics and the one thing that can safely be said is that there are no easy absolutist answers that are also correct. Growing into seeing the complexities of almost any question worth asking followed by growing into understanding the complexities of the range of answers is arguably what humans are _for_. It’s certainly _the_ unique province of humans among all the life on this planet. Lousy though we mostly may be at doing it. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/84 "2020-12-04T16:22:09Z")
> [@Jillena](#): > > But DPRK…Eating seeds/grains will prevent them from becoming a life…just like an egg. Minimising pain and suffering and balanced stewardship toward what we eat is i think sensible. Isn’t that exactly the Jain credo? The principle is to minimize killing and injury. They consider consuming seeds, grains, etc. to cause less (but not no!) destruction of life than digging up a potato. Fruit considered to carry too much promise of life (loads of seeds) may indeed be avoided. They take this philosophy seriously (ever try to invite a strict Jain to eat out in a restaurant? I have) which is why I suggested you look into it if minimizing destruction is important to you. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/85 "2020-12-04T16:29:33Z")
Al Capp invented the [Shmoo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmoo), the ideal solution to the moral dilemma of having to kill to eat. Unfortunately, Shmoos inevitably cause the collapse of civilization. From [here:](http://lil-abner.com/the-shmoo/) > [@](#): > > According to Shmoo legend, the lovable creature laid eggs, gave milk and died of sheer esctasy when looked at with hunger. The Shmoo loved to be eaten and tasted like any food desired. Anything that delighted people delighted a Shmoo. Fry a Shmoo and it came out chicken. Broil it and it came out steak. Shmoo eyes made terrific suspender buttons. The hide of the Shmoo if cut thin made fine leather and if cut thick made the best lumber. Shmoo whiskers made splendid toothpicks. The Shmoo satisfied all the world’s wants. You could never run out of Shmoon (plural of Shmoo) because they multiplied at such an incredible rate. The Shmoo believed that the only way to happiness was to bring happiness to others. ---
**Author:** ![KMS94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ad7895/32.png) [@KMS94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KMS94)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/86 "2020-12-04T16:32:10Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Murder is a strong word, I think you’ll find most people don’t consider meat = murder. The Smiths would like to have a word with you… 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Jillena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e495f1/32.png) [@Jillena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillena)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/87 "2020-12-05T00:34:33Z")
Absolutely …and thankyou. ---
**Author:** ![Jillena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e495f1/32.png) [@Jillena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillena)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/88 "2020-12-05T00:35:43Z")
Ok cheers for that. Makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Jillena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e495f1/32.png) [@Jillena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillena)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/89 "2020-12-05T00:37:25Z")
Thats a wise Shmoo! ---
**Author:** ![Jillena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e495f1/32.png) [@Jillena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillena)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/90 "2020-12-05T00:41:55Z")
Interesting. Are The Smiths nice people? ---
**Author:** ![KMS94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ad7895/32.png) [@KMS94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KMS94)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/91 "2020-12-05T02:09:43Z")
Some would call them Rusholme Ruffians. At least, That’s What She Said. But, I can see That Joke Isn’t funny Anymore, and seems to be Going Nowhere Fast. It all depends on How Soon Is Now. (The Smiths are a band, they had an album called “Meat is Murder”) 😀 Welcome to the board. ---
**Author:** ![Jillena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e495f1/32.png) [@Jillena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillena)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/92 "2020-12-05T02:47:27Z")
Oh ok thankyou KMS94 …how funny though, I had no idea! ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/93 "2020-12-05T09:18:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Placenta. Eww! I read about that once. Oh wait, > **[Is there really such a thing as … placenta stew?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341856/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-placenta-stew)** ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/94 "2020-12-05T13:25:59Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > … > More to the point of the OP, if you’re OK with nuts on the list, you might want to make an exception for cashews: the pain and in many cases deformities they cause the workers (almost entirely women) who shell them are pretty awful. (The shells contain toxins.) Ironically, cashew consumption has skyrocketed (up 30% in 5 years) as more people embrace a vegan lifestyle. [Here’s a good article on it](https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/women-india-pay-price-cashew-nut-demand-vegan-diets-rise-9110415/). > > I haven’t looked into the number of farm workers worldwide who are hurt or killed while harvesting fruits or vegetables, but maybe that’s not a concern for you, since you’re talking about eating without killing plants or (non-human) animals directly. On a similar note, I have suggested to vegans that rather than avoiding honey, they ought to avoid almonds. You can buy a local artisanal honey, and the bees who produced that are essentially pampered pets. They are also free to abandon the beekeeper if they decide they don’t like the conditions. It’s as close to guilt-free as most any food. But the bees who are shipped to the desert of California to pollinate the almond crop actually are enslaved in some meaningful sense (I mean, if you think words like “slavery” and “abuse” can apply to insects) and quite a lot of hives die every year from the stress. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/95 "2020-12-05T15:26:09Z")
The almond industry in California is obscene in other ways. The dollar value of the water poured on the crop is less than the value of the almonds produced. This in a state that’s (absent imported water) mostly a desert. How is this possible? They have the political power to get water for almost free. Unlike the other citizens of California. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/96 "2020-12-05T19:53:54Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > > [@Colibri](#): > > > > Also many vegetables are killed when they are harvested. > > And they likely do [scream in anguish](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-record-stressed-out-plants-emitting-ultrasonic-squeals-180973716/) when stressed. Reminds me of the Roald Dahl story “The Sound Machine” (published in _The New Yorker_ in 1949). ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/97 "2020-12-05T21:06:11Z")
> If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. > -Jack Handy ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/98 "2020-12-05T22:12:34Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > > [@Colibri](#): > > > > Also many vegetables are killed when they are harvested. > > And they likely do [scream in anguish](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-record-stressed-out-plants-emitting-ultrasonic-squeals-180973716/) when stressed. Reminds me of Kirlian photography and the supposedly bad auras of cut plants. > [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > > If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. > > -Jack Handy Good one. Years ago in the Midwest I had a lot of trees around my house. Which during the non-frozen parts of the years were always full of songbirds tweeting & cheeping and all the rest. It was a pretty happy noise. Having lunch on the patio one day my wife idly asked “I wonder what they’re all saying?” Being the wit I am I blurted out “They’re all complaining that their feet hurt. Ouch Bob, this bark is sharp! Oww Sally, I’ve got a hang-claw! We should all fly away; I’m tired of standing here on my aching feet!” Anyhow, that became an in-joke we chuckled about for years. But somehow at the same time it partly ruined the magic of birdsong. It’s all in how you think of it. Good thing the trees don’t scream all the time. They wouldn’t be nearly as much our friends. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/99 "2020-12-05T22:24:49Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Having lunch on the patio one day my wife idly asked “I wonder what they’re all saying?” I hate to break it to you, but when male birds are singing they are saying “Get out of here or I’ll beat the snot out of you!” to other males, and “Hey, bay-bee!” to females. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063/100 "2020-12-05T22:36:43Z")
I didn’t say my joke was very good. Just that it sorta took the romance off hearing birdsong thereafter. As you say, for darn near any critter unless it’s a warning cry about a predator it’s almost always about sex. Either the sex you want to have or the sex you want to prevent others having. And for folks who missed the learned @Colibri’s sly allusion: [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/b5/8a/41b58a81695bcdf5fd4b69f006af87a3.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/b5/8a/41b58a81695bcdf5fd4b69f006af87a3.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eating-without-killing/927063.md?page=6)