# eBay hacking: Can a shill bidder discover a legit bidder's max bid amount? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428 "2004-12-06T22:22:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/41 "2004-12-08T20:34:39Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#): > > I sent an email to the seller immediately that I didn’t want to purchase the item and to the Ebay staff. The seller was insistent that I purchase the product and said that if I didn’t he would complain to Ebay, and pursue aggressive legal action against me and would place it against my credit. In the end I ended up “giving” him $50.00 dollars to make him go away (I wouldn’t have done this but for the fact that my wife insisted that it wasn’t worth the risk of hurting our credit). > > . He couldn’t hurt your credit report at all. If you have more than a couple of “NPB” (non-paying bidder) complaints then yes, eBay will “NARU” (Not a registered user) you. But it won’t show up on Experian, etc. Yes, ebay does do this to buyers- but honestly people also make mistakes, so eBay doesn’t want to ban dudes for making a mistake. There is simply no way that sellers -in general- have of discovering what your high proxy bid is/was. Yes, they could try shills, but then there is a bid history that shows the bids and the amount of each bid- and you can check on each bidder and their history of past bids. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/42 "2004-12-08T22:34:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He couldn’t hurt your credit report at all. If you have more than a couple of “NPB” (non-paying bidder) complaints then yes, eBay will “NARU” (Not a registered user) you. I couldn’t find anywhere in eBay’s posted policies where it mentioned any specific number of strikes that would result in being banned. Where are you getting that it’s 3? (assuming that “a couple” means 2). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/43 "2004-12-09T00:01:46Z")
Well, it used to say 3, but maybe they changed the wording. It all depends, after a couple in a short period, they will definately review your status. But remember- NPB’s don’t really cost the seller all that much. He can offer the item to the next highest bidder, and he gets most of his fees back or gets to relist if that doesn’t work. And most importantly- _he still has the item_. He’s out maybe a buck or so. However, of course it is **VERY** annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/44 "2004-12-09T00:58:43Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > What you are suggesting is no different to what ebay’s proxy bidding would do for you anyway. I just wanted to say that I do something similar myself, but without the outside program, and it typically works better than the ebay proxy system. The problem with the proxy bid as I see it is simply that it works instantaneously, so someone can keep bidding up until they take the item. I’ll bid significantly less than my max at first, and let the auction run down a bit in case I get outbid in the final minutes, then should that occur, snipe the item right back without having to go too high on the bid. People seem to try a couple of bids just to see if they can take the item, and this keeps it from getting ‘nibbled’ up to the max amount I want to pay. It also seems that a lot of people edge up slowly until their bid is just above yours, so I can typically return and seize the item for about a buck more than their bid. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Deschain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/45 "2004-12-09T01:07:38Z")
If there wasn’t something fishy going on I don’t see how when I made my error of bidding $250.00 (rather than my intended $25.00) that the bids could have gone up so rapidly in the final couple of minutes. This is especially the case given that the program I was bidding on only sold for something like $150.00 at Best Buy! By the way another reason that I no longer buy software at Ebay is that a friend in my nursing class who is a cop told me that a high percentage of their software are either illegal copies or obtained in less than honorable means (he said often by company insiders who sell it on the side for extra money). He said that it would be very unlikely that any buyer would ever be prosecuted for conversion (or anything else), but that it could come up if I ever ran for political office. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/46 "2004-12-09T09:21:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But remember- NPB’s don’t really cost the seller all that much. He can offer the item to the next highest bidder, 2 problems with that. The next highest bid is lower than the winning bid, so that’s already a loss right there. And it’s been my experience that the second-place bidders for some reason usually have no interest in buying the item after the first-place bidder flakes. Or in the case of this one item I sold, the jerk used “Buy It Now” and ended the auction early, so there was no way to know what the next highest bid would have been, because the bids most likely hadn’t all come in yet. > [@](#): > > and he gets most of his fees back or gets to relist if that doesn’t work. And most importantly- _he still has the item_. He’s out maybe a buck or so. However, of course it is **VERY** annoying. Yeah, you can get a fee refund. It’s mainly the time and effort spent. And then there was the fact that flake actually did the “Buy It Now” on my item, which ended the auction early. I had already gotten some pretty juicy bids, and if the auction had completed, it most likely would have fetched a pretty good price. The guy emailed me the day after he bid, and said he would pay the following day. I waited one more day for him to pay, so that’s 3 days already. Then I emailed him to find out why he didn’t pay, and waited one more day for a response, which never came. 4 days. Then I tried to file a complaint, but eBay forces you to wait 10 days before you can do that. Then there’s a further mandatory waiting period where eBay waits for the deadbeat buyer to respond. I wanted to get that out of the way and make sure I got my fee refund before I relisted the item. All told, it took an extra 3 weeks, plus the 10 day auction duration times 2. So I ended up with a very large item sitting in my living room for a good month and a half, waiting to get rid of it, and just hoping I got as good a bid the second time around. Not a lot of fun. Then I checked the guy’s feedback a couple weeks later, and he did the same thing to someone else. But he’s still not banned. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/47 "2004-12-09T09:29:09Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#): > > I just wanted to say that I do something similar myself, but without the outside program, and it typically works better than the ebay proxy system. > > The problem with the proxy bid as I see it is simply that it works instantaneously, so someone can keep bidding up until they take the item. I’ll bid significantly less than my max at first, and let the auction run down a bit in case I get outbid in the final minutes, then should that occur, snipe the item right back without having to go too high on the bid. > > People seem to try a couple of bids just to see if they can take the item, and this keeps it from getting ‘nibbled’ up to the max amount I want to pay. It also seems that a lot of people edge up slowly until their bid is just above yours, so I can typically return and seize the item for about a buck more than their bid. Sorry to belabor the point, but it seems to me that this strategy would work a lot better if you just eliminated that initial early low bid, and _only_ do the part where you “return and seize the item”. Again I have to ask, what does that early bid do other than run up the price? Sounds great for the _seller_, but how does it help _you_? ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/48 "2004-12-09T10:50:39Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#): > > I just wanted to say that I do something similar myself, but without the outside program, and it typically works better than the ebay proxy system. But that’s not how the outside program works. If it did, all you’d be doing is using a system to proxy bid by degrees into a system that proxy bids by degrees. The second level of complexity is completely redundant and just slows the process up. > [@](#): > > The problem with the proxy bid as I see it is simply that it works instantaneously, so someone can keep bidding up until they take the item. I’ll bid significantly less than my max at first, and let the auction run down a bit in case I get outbid in the final minutes, then should that occur, snipe the item right back without having to go too high on the bid If you want to snipe and hide your intentions from others the best course of action is not to bid **at all** until the last moment. That way no-one knows you even have intentions, never mind what they are. It’s not as if you’re to be seen hanging around looking interested, and so have to put in a diversionary bid. ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/49 "2004-12-09T13:23:59Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > But that’s not how the outside program works. If it did, all you’d be doing is using a system to proxy bid by degrees into a system that proxy bids by degrees. The second level of complexity is completely redundant and just slows the process up. Ah, I see. As for not bidding at all until the last minute, I’m willing to admit a level of laziness 😉 I always hope that the item will simply be carried by my original low bid… ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/50 "2004-12-09T13:25:36Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Sorry to belabor the point, but it seems to me that this strategy would work a lot better if you just eliminated that initial early low bid, and _only_ do the part where you “return and seize the item”. Again I have to ask, what does that early bid do other than run up the price? Sounds great for the _seller_, but how does it help _you_? Also, I admit to a certain level of thrill in the process. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![agatto2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbce88/32.png) [@agatto2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agatto2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/51 "2012-02-01T01:22:05Z")
> [@stuyguy](#): > > **Holmes,** my apologies if I came off snippy (snipey?) – entirely not my intent, I assure you. > > I realize that I was sniped, if by that you mean he posted a bid in the closing seconds. But to say someone has been sniped usually implies that they _lost_ the auction; I did not. Furthermore, his bid does not show the signs of autosniping – there were no rapidfire incremental bids at the last second. There was just one big last-second bid that came shy of mine by mere pennies. > > Again, I apologize if you took the tone of my previous post the wrong way. I agree with stuyguy — I just had the exact same thing happen… So I took a screen shot or two for the peanut gallery… Now notice on #1 that the guy placed his bid after mine… So how is that possible? Now #2 shows you there is something rotton in the dog pile. He always bids 2 times on items, and always at the last minuite, and the bids are duplicate… Ohhh no - do i have to upload or host pictures to show my screen capture here? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/52 "2012-02-01T01:25:34Z")
> [@agatto2](#): > > Ohhh no - do i have to upload or host pictures to show my screen capture here? You can’t post pictures in your post, or upload pictures to this website. You can post links to pictures hosted elsewhere though. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/53 "2012-02-01T01:51:27Z")
I bid on some artwork back in the arlier days of eBay. In the end, someone else overbid me and won by a decent amount. Later I got a message from the seller saying the person had backed out somehow. (Didn’t get the details). They offered it to me at my last bid, but I declined to buy the item. I was wary at the time that the bidding had gone on and on and up and up, I wondered if I was being played to determine my top price. So based on anecdotes, it sounds like there’s a technique for shilling - figuring out someone’s bid limit and pushing the bidding up to that. If so, the pattern - who is counterbidding to shill - should be obvious. I haven’t played with eBay for a while but is there necessarily a history of bid after bid, ir simply does A’s continuous bidding simply trigger “B has outbid you” until the final bid amounts are shown? IIRC, the purpose of bidding early is that it gives you precedence in breaking ties. Another point is - I would typically bid winning high amounts. Someone likely will bid up to $950? To win, go $960 - but that’s too round. 965? 967 is better - above the “round numbers” guess. If someone does frantic sniping, then they have to guess well or run out of time. I don’t see the logic of bidding just UNDER round numbers, unless you are trying to shill. If shilling is happening, eBay could find out for sure, how, and stop it. They could also stop a lot of other stuff. They choose not to, so I tend to stay away from them. I have heard all sorts of horror stories. ---
**Author:** ![agatto2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbce88/32.png) [@agatto2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agatto2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/54 "2012-02-01T02:04:46Z")
And there is the thought that ebay itself is doing the shill bidding… Would not put it past them, they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar with digital point owner… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/55 "2012-02-01T02:12:39Z")
There is no way to determine shill bidding. Period. There are millions of bidders on ebay… not very much stuff goes unnoticed. You simply lost to a bid at the last second, or you won the item for what you decided was an acceptable price when you bid on it even though the price went up in the end. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/56 "2012-02-01T02:14:52Z")
I’ve often been on both sides of this problem. I see an item with a low price that’s ending soon. I place a bid for twenty bucks more because I really want it. Then discover someone has a high reserve bid. Usually I say F it and walk away. I’m not getting into a bidding war against someones auto reserve. Maybe I was really close to that guys max reserve? You just never know for sure when to walk away from an item. I’ve also been sniped and lost bids in the final seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/57 "2012-02-01T03:45:31Z")
A significant proportion of the time people are bound to make similar decisions about what they are prepared to pay for something and to both snipe accordingly. It would be weird if the situation outlined in the OP _didn’t_ happen quite often. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/58 "2012-02-01T04:06:51Z")
I just wanted to say that I logged in and bought my first few items on ebay today! I got some great deals on some various A/V cables (I made sure to buy from the United States, and not Hong Kong because I hear cables from Asia tend not to work, not sure if that’s true or not). Ebay is fun! Any words on advice for me? I don’t think I’ll ever sell anything… but who knows. Mainly, are there certain things to look out for? I’ll probably be mostly looking at electronics, peripherals, retro stuff, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/59 "2012-02-01T05:28:11Z")
I buy electronic bits from HK all the time. They work. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428/60 "2012-02-01T14:01:22Z")
The point is, if someone is autobidding or sniping to win, they will bid _ **above** _ a round number. The thinking goes - they probably bid $800, I would bid 810, but they probably thought of that and autobid 815, so I’ll go with 817. Bidding just \*\*\*under \*\*\*the round number suggests you want lose, i.e. shill. So maybe someone had figured out a system. Is this still the case, or are these all zombie anecdotes? Did eBay actually fix anything? I find that hard to believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-hacking-can-a-shill-bidder-discover-a-legit-bidders-max-bid-amount/278428.md?page=4)