# Ebay is banning listings of confederate flags and related items. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258 "2015-06-23T16:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/181 "2015-06-26T14:00:37Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I don’t think what eBay and Amazon are doing is gentle shaming. It is disingenuous publicity-grabbing. > > The General Lee is banned, but [this item remains](http://www.amazon.com/258stickers%C2%AE-Playstation-Console-Remote-Controllers/dp/B00YYLJRKA/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1435096549&sr=8-9&keywords=Swastika)? Yes, thank you for your moral leadership, Amazon. Well, we’ll have to disagree on that. I do think that Amazon and eBay are engaging in moral suasion and gentle shaming, in a very effective way. And I think the Nazi merchandise proves my point – as the culture identifies a particular issue to be addressed, in this case the Confederate flag, corporations move with it – that’s how moral suasion works. More importantly, I agree with **Left Hand of Dorkness** - in cases involving long-term oppression and deeply rooted cultural beliefs, waiting for change to come from within is not effective. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/182 "2015-06-26T14:01:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Spoke** : > > If you don’t understand the connections from blues to country and back again, then you understand very little. Of course black people are integral to Southern culture and have been since Jamestown. Their influence runs all through our shared culture, from music to food to industry to religion to the African influence on the dialect. They are a part of Southern culture, not apart from it. Black people are certainly part of Southern culture. They are not part of what the Confederate Battle Flag represents. In fact, black people not being part of it is _exactly_ what the Confederate Battle Flag represents. Therefore, what the Confederate Battle Flag represents is not and cannot be Southern culture. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/183 "2015-06-26T14:07:40Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > More importantly, I agree with **Left Hand of Dorkness** - in cases involving long-term oppression and deeply rooted cultural beliefs, waiting for change to come from within is not effective. And yet it has been effective with the Confederate flag. Shaming works. Most people these days just wouldn’t display the flag because they don’t want to offend or be perceived as racist. That was most certainly not the case in the 70s. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/184 "2015-06-26T14:07:41Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Ok, so please elaborate. What happened under the Confederate flag that DIDN’T happen under the U.S. one (and for far longer)? Slavery? Racism? White supremacy? Secession? Black codes? Jim Crow? Segregation? > > To declare one flag to be the flag of slavery, racism, and hate and the other to be innocuous requires some pretty staunch hypocrisy. Unless, of course, blacks really were treated worse in the Confederacy than in the Union, an argument I would just LOVE someone to make. What happened under the Confederate flag? Explicit opposition to Civil Rights in the 60s, and support for segregation in the 50s. The shooting at a Charleston black church, and many other acts of violence against black people in the 20th century. Further, many things happened under the US flag and not the Confederate flag: ending slavery, Civil Rights, voting rights, banning of lynchings, and much, much more. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/185 "2015-06-26T14:09:40Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I have never heard the phrase uttered seriously. Have you? It has always been a joke. And thanks for sharing. If anyone else has some thoughts on the phrase snd it use, feel free. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/186 "2015-06-26T14:10:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I see it quite frequently here in Central Florida, even though we only have pockets of The South here. Probably at least once a day. Once a day? How many people reside in central Florida? This is what I mean about doing a double-take when you see the flag. It is unusual, so it catches your attention. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/187 "2015-06-26T14:12:11Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Ok, so please elaborate. What happened under the Confederate flag that DIDN’T happen under the U.S. one (and for far longer)? Slavery? Racism? White supremacy? Secession? Black codes? Jim Crow? Segregation? > > To declare one flag to be the flag of slavery, racism, and hate and the other to be innocuous requires some pretty staunch hypocrisy. Unless, of course, blacks really were treated worse in the Confederacy than in the Union, an argument I would just LOVE someone to make. So the U.S. flag represents a lot of bad stuff, but the Confederate flag represents a concentrated form of some of that bad stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/188 "2015-06-26T14:17:20Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > And yet it has been effective with the Confederate flag. Shaming works. Most people these days just wouldn’t display the flag because they don’t want to offend or be perceived as racist. That was most certainly not the case in the 70s. I’m really not clear what exactly you think worked, and what you think won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/189 "2015-06-26T14:17:46Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > No, but various [polling organizations](http://qz.com/#435268/chart-americans-are-quickly-turning-on-the-confederate-flag/)did. As of June 22, 64% of Americans disapprove of the flag, which certainly qualifies as millions. Thank you for acknowledging your reckless hyperbole. So “hatred and racism” have now become “disapproval.” Sounds about right. > [@](#): > > Maybe this is a novel concept for you, but I try to live my life by not offending people. That includes not engaging in everyday rudeness to people, and it also includes not displaying symbols that offend people when **those symbols have no other purpose,** and there are plenty of better ways to make my point. As I said, if you are proud of being Southern, wear a T-shirt that says so. If you like Southern music, use the logo of your favorite band. If you like Southern food, share that love with others. But don’t fly the Confederate flag unless you want people to think that you’re supporting the ideals of the Confederacy. Refusing to acknowledging any other purpose doesn’t mean they don’t exist. **Spoke** has explained to you people some non-racist reasons Southerners display the flag; his patience has been met with a collective, “Fuck that noise–it’s racism.” So why do you even discuss questions you already know the answer to? Yes I read your suggestions about how good southerners should show their pride. But you are not the final arbiter on what other Americans can do. More’s the pity. The “ideals of the Confederacy” were exactly the same as the “ideals of America” except for secession. If secession offends you so sincerely after 150 years, you need to find a way to move on. (But I don’t think secession bothers you, I think you buy into the American propaganda that the south was bad and north was good. It wasn’t; the North was just as bad, but the victors write the history books.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/190 "2015-06-26T14:22:04Z")
The North wasn’t great, but the South sure was better at being bad. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/191 "2015-06-26T14:25:17Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The “ideals of the Confederacy” were exactly the same as the “ideals of America” except for secession. This is just false. The “ideals of the Confederacy”, according to various states’ Articles of Secession, and the words of its leaders, were based on the cornerstone of slavery and on the cornerstone of white supremacy and black inferiority. The “ideals of the United States” were not, even though, at the time, some states (but not all) outside of the South still supported slavery. Further, the Confederate flag was resurrected to prominence in the mid 20th century as an explicitly racist symbol, to oppose integration and Civil Rights. Even if we ignore the Civil War, the Confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/192 "2015-06-26T14:26:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What happened under the Confederate flag? Explicit opposition to Civil Rights in the 60s, and support for segregation in the 50s. Well, thank God Black Codes, Jim Crow, and de jure segregation didn’t occur under the good ole Stars and Stripes! Oh, wait… > [@](#): > > The shooting at a Charleston black church, and many other acts of violence against black people in the 20th century. It’s too bad Confederate, and not American, law functioned at that time. Americans would have stopped that. > [@](#): > > Further, many things happened under the US flag and not the Confederate flag: ending slavery, Civil Rights, voting rights, banning of lynchings, and much, much more. Yeah, like slavery being legal to begin with. But thank you for making my point. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/193 "2015-06-26T14:28:16Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Refusing to acknowledging any other purpose doesn’t mean they don’t exist. **Spoke** has explained to you people some non-racist reasons Southerners display the flag Those reasons were never sincere. They were always whitewash for racist messages, brutally racist ones. Your attempt to make an equivalence between the U.S. flag and the Confederate battle flag shows you don’t actually know the history of the Confederacy or the flag. 1. The Confederate battle flag was never the national flag of the Confederacy. 2. Even if it had been, what makes the Confederacy different from the United States is that it was created for the sole purpose of preserving slavery. The Confederacy had no other national basis. 3. The Confederate battle flag became popular explicitly as a symbol for oppressing black people. It was adopted by the KKK, and later by segregationists. Accepting the later whitewashing of explicitly racist purposes on their face would allow the users any symbol of hate to assert “but _I_ didn’t mean it that way” as a plausible claim. It’s ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/194 "2015-06-26T14:31:08Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Well, thank God Black Codes, Jim Crow, and de jure segregation didn’t occur under the good ole Stars and Stripes! Oh, wait… Yep – and the Stars and Stripes (or those under it) acted to end those things. Those under the Confederate flag did not. Hence, the first is far superior. Ending slavery is much, much better than not ending slavery. > [@](#): > > It’s too bad Confederate, and not American, law functioned at that time. Americans would have stopped that. Americans are prosecuting it, and Americans have acted to take down the symbol that inspired the shooter from government buildings. > [@](#): > > Yeah, like slavery being legal to begin with. > > But thank you for making my point. So you’re agreeing with me, now? That ending slavery, as happened under the US flag, and ending Jim Crow, and ending segregation, as all happened under the Stars and Stripes, are much superior to not doing so (or in fact, at the time, supporting those institutions), as per the Confederate flag? Or are you seriously arguing that the act of ending those things was not good, or not meaningful, or does not deserve to be honored? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/195 "2015-06-26T14:39:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is just false. The “ideals of the Confederacy”, according to various states’ Articles of Secession, and the words of its leaders, were based on the cornerstone of slavery and on the cornerstone of white supremacy and black inferiority. The “ideals of the United States” were not, even though, at the time, some states (but not all) outside of the South still supported slavery. Gotcha, so Union slave states didn’t believe in white supremacy? Or they did but they didn’t write it in Articles of Secession? I already conceded that secession was the one difference. Your nonsense about “cornerstones” is irrelevant; blacks were treated the same in both regions. Slavery was an atrocity, period. Slavery wasn’t MORE of an atrocity in Mississippi than in Maryland. > [@](#): > > Further, the Confederate flag was resurrected to prominence in the mid 20th century as an explicitly racist symbol, to oppose integration and Civil Rights. Even if we ignore the Civil War, the Confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacy. No, it has always been used by various groups. Racists use it just as they use the U.S. Flag. Ever seen pictures of a Klan march? They use the American flag along side the battle flag, which is very fitting. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/196 "2015-06-26T14:39:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m really not clear what exactly you think worked, and what you think won’t work. Let’s put it this way: Have you ever, in your life, convinced somebody they were wrong by out-yelling them? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/197 "2015-06-26T14:41:23Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Once a day? How many people reside in central Florida? > > This is what I mean about doing a double-take when you see the flag. It is unusual, so it catches your attention. A couple million. But it’s not like I see more than a few hundred cars a day. Anyway, unusual or not _it still flies on public grounds in many southern states._ So whatever people may think of it, they apparently don’t find it an embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/198 "2015-06-26T14:45:41Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Let’s put it this way: > > Have you ever, in your life, convinced somebody they were wrong by out-yelling them? By literally out-yelling them? No. But nobody’s yelling here, so that has nothing to do with this situation. Do you mean metaphorically? I don’t know that I have, but I certainly have seen it happen, if by “out-yelling” you mean “speaking clearly and with passion and without a whole lot of thought for protecting the delicate feelings of the opposition.” ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/199 "2015-06-26T14:46:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you’re agreeing with me, now? That ending slavery, as happened under the US flag, and ending Jim Crow, and ending segregation, as all happened under the Stars and Stripes, are much superior to not doing so (or in fact, at the time, supporting those institutions), as per the Confederate flag? > > Or are you seriously arguing that the act of ending those things was not good, or not meaningful, or does not deserve to be honored? None of those things would have had to be ended if the U.S. hadn’t done them to begin with. Do you think a rapist should be congratulated when he finally climbs off his victim? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/200 "2015-06-26T14:56:46Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Do you think a rapist should be congratulated when he finally climbs off his victim? No-but how about you? Does the honeysuckle taste less sweet because it’s an invasive species? Or let me put it another way: is it really Classic Coke if it’s not made with cane sugar? Still confused? I ask you: is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=11)