# Ebay is banning listings of confederate flags and related items. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258 "2015-06-23T16:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/201 "2015-06-26T15:03:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m really not clear what exactly you think worked, and what you think won’t work. It’s like he thinks SC taking that flag down happened years ago. It happened as a result of people getting into other people’s faces and demanding that it come down. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/202 "2015-06-26T15:04:10Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > If you don’t understand the connections from blues to country _and back again_, then you understand very little. Of course black people are integral to Southern culture and have been since Jamestown. Their influence runs all through our shared culture, from music to food to industry to religion to the African influence on the dialect. They are a part of Southern culture, not apart from it. All of which has fuck all to do with the point I was making. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/203 "2015-06-26T15:07:17Z")
Evidently no accomplishment counts if you once did something bad, so why not wallow in the bad and wave the stars and bars? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/204 "2015-06-26T15:29:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Evidently no accomplishment counts if you once did something bad, so why not wallow in the bad and wave the stars and bars? Just to be clear, this is the Stars and Bars, the first national flag of the Confederacy — [Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#/media/File:Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_(1861-1863).svg) This is the Confederate battle flag, which was never a national flag — [Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#/media/File:Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/205 "2015-06-26T15:29:51Z")
You want to know what has worked down here? Shaming. From fellow Southerners. It can be as subtle has one lady whispering to another how “trashy” a house looks with a Confederate flag hanging from it. In the Southern mind, the flag has come to be associated with _trashiness_. Nobody wants to be one of the Ewells from _To Kill a Mockingbird._ And that it why it has been so easy for conservative Republican politicians from good families to step up and denounce the flag, or remove it from capitol grounds. No amount of yelling or insults does this. I will tell you a more specific story about how the flag came down back in my small hometown in north Georgia. The mayor spoke out, calmly, about how it bothered him. He didn’t scream about racial injustice, or lynchings from 60 years ago, or the horrible carnage of slavery, or what a bunch of rednecks and “slavers” everyone was. He just said he thought it was inappropriate. (This was before the events in Charleston, by the way.) And the County Commissioner, hearing that (and no dount having it reinforced by constituents), began taking steps to get the flag, and the attached Confederate monument, off the lawn of the Courthouse. It did not require yelling, or noisy protests, or placards, or editorials in the New York Times. The mayor, by the way, is black, in a town with a 12% black population. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/206 "2015-06-26T15:32:35Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > You want to know what has worked down here? Shaming. From fellow Southerners. > [@MLK](#): > > I think I should indicate why I am here in Birmingham, since you have been influenced by the view which argues against “outsiders coming in.” I have the honor of serving as president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, an organization operating in every southern state, with headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia. We have some eighty five affiliated organizations across the South, and one of them is the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Frequently we share staff, educational and financial resources with our affiliates. Several months ago the affiliate here in Birmingham asked us to be on call to engage in a nonviolent direct action program if such were deemed necessary. We readily consented, and when the hour came we lived up to our promise. So I, along with several members of my staff, am here because I was invited here. I am here because I have organizational ties here. > > But more basically, I am in Birmingham because injustice is here. Just as the prophets of the eighth century B.C. left their villages and carried their “thus saith the Lord” far beyond the boundaries of their home towns, and just as the Apostle Paul left his village of Tarsus and carried the gospel of Jesus Christ to the far corners of the Greco Roman world, so am I compelled to carry the gospel of freedom beyond my own home town. Like Paul, I must constantly respond to the Macedonian call for aid. > > Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial “outside agitator” idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds. The idea that them damn Yankees shouldn’t speak up is a terrible idea. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/207 "2015-06-26T15:33:18Z")
> [@](#): > > You want to know what has worked down here? Shaming. From fellow Southerners. Yes, shaming has worked [brilliantly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_%28U.S._state%29#Current_flag) in Georgia. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/208 "2015-06-26T15:42:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Evidently no accomplishment counts if you once did something bad, so why not wallow in the bad and wave the stars and bars? “Once did something bad”? That was American slavery? But the Southerners are revisionists, right? No, if you “once did something bad,” it doesn’t negate all other accomplishments. But if you set up a country that legalizes slavery, count slaves as 3/5 of a person in your Constitution, allow slavery to spread across new states in your country, have your Supreme Court declare that negroes CANNOT be citizens, pass laws to ensure escaped slaves get returned, maintain slavery for generations, and then only end slavery AFTER a civil war, you lose the moral high ground to point your finger south and scream, “Racists!” It rings hollow and hypocritical. Especially when Northern cities continue to be hot beds of racism and segregation. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/209 "2015-06-26T15:44:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The idea that them damn Yankees shouldn’t speak up is a terrible idea. Them damn Yankees are as racist as anybody, in my experience. Maybe they should look in their own back yards while they are looking for injustice, as comforting as it may be to pretend that racism is a Southern problem. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/210 "2015-06-26T15:47:42Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > None of those things would have had to be ended if the U.S. hadn’t done them to begin with. Yep – and for doing them, the US should be criticized (as it is and has been), and for ending them, the US should be praised. By ending them, the US has shown itself to be far, far superior to the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/211 "2015-06-26T15:48:31Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Them damn Yankees are as racist as anybody, in my experience. Maybe they should look in their own back yards while they are looking for injustice, as comforting as it may be to pretend that racism is a Southern problem. That’s nonsense. If them damn Yankees are doing a specific racist thing–and they are, no doubt–then speak up about that, too. Your voice would be really helpful when NYC cops are stopping and frisking black men at a high rate, for example. You can say something like, “Listen, assholes, I’m a white Southerner, and even I can see you’re being racist!” Speak up, dude. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/212 "2015-06-26T15:48:42Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Gotcha, so Union slave states didn’t believe in white supremacy? The slave states probably did, but you keep ignoring the other states. > [@](#): > > Or they did but they didn’t write it in Articles of Secession? I already conceded that secession was the one difference. And I pointed out several other differences. > [@](#): > > Your nonsense about “cornerstones” is irrelevant; blacks were treated the same in both regions. No they weren’t – in many Union states, they weren’t slaves. > [@](#): > > Slavery was an atrocity, period. Slavery wasn’t MORE of an atrocity in Mississippi than in Maryland. It didn’t exist in Massachussets at the time (and in many other states), so that’s much less atrocity a-happening in the Union. > [@](#): > > No, it has always been used by various groups. Racists use it just as they use the U.S. Flag. Ever seen pictures of a Klan march? They use the American flag along side the battle flag, which is very fitting. Perhaps some racists, but not all, and not Dylann Roof (and many others). And the Confederate flag, unlike the US flag, was resurrected to prominence in the mid-20th century explicitly to oppose Civil Rights and integration. And the Confederate flag, unlike the US flag, never flew over the overturning of racist and oppressive laws and practices. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/213 "2015-06-26T15:49:26Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Them damn Yankees are as racist as anybody, in my experience. Maybe they should look in their own back yards while they are looking for injustice, as comforting as it may be to pretend that racism is a Southern problem. Of course the Yankees are racist. The difference is that they didn’t create a symbol specifically to celebrate racism, use it for a century to terrorize minorities, and then all of a sudden try to pretend it was about some nebulous heritage. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/214 "2015-06-26T15:51:56Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > “Once did something bad”? That was American slavery? But the Southerners are revisionists, right? > > No, if you “once did something bad,” it doesn’t negate all other accomplishments. But if you set up a country that legalizes slavery, count slaves as 3/5 of a person in your Constitution, allow slavery to spread across new states in your country, have your Supreme Court declare that negroes CANNOT be citizens, pass laws to ensure escaped slaves get returned, maintain slavery for generations, and then only end slavery AFTER a civil war, you lose the moral high ground to point your finger south and scream, “Racists!” It rings hollow and hypocritical. Especially when Northern cities continue to be hot beds of racism and segregation. I’m not pointing fingers and screaming “Racists!”. I’m a Southerner, in fact. I’m saying “you shouldn’t fly the Confederate flag”, and “it’s reasonable for black people to view the flag as a symbol of oppression”, and “if you choose to fly the flag while knowing this you are being rude, obnoxious, and a poor neighbor”. I’m saying that flying the Confederate flag is, in fact, profoundly un-Southern in that it is extremely rude and un-neighborly to fellow Southerners. And the US flag is incomparable, for the many reasons I’ve listed plus perhaps the most important that I’ve left out – the vast majority of black Americans do not see the US flag as a symbol of racist oppression, while they do see the Confederate flag as this. As always, I trust the vast majority of black Americans when it comes to the reality of anti-black racism – they’ve always been correct on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/215 "2015-06-26T15:55:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Speak up, dude. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Toy versions of the General Lee for sale on eBay are a threat to justice everywhere? I think there might be bigger fish to fry. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/216 "2015-06-26T16:03:22Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Toy versions of the General Lee for sale on eBay are a threat to justice everywhere? I think there might be bigger fish to fry. This question–are there bigger fish to fry?–is a new subject, and I’d thank you not to shift focus like this. I’ll assume that the shift in focus means you agree that, just as you should speak up about racism up north, northerners should speak up about racism down south. And yes, if I had a choice between catching the small fish or the big fish, I’d go big. But that’s not the choice we have right now. We have a chance to fry a small fish, and the choice is to fry it or not. I say fry, minnow, fry! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/217 "2015-06-26T16:10:38Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > “Once did something bad”? That was American slavery? But the Southerners are revisionists, right? > > No, if you “once did something bad,” it doesn’t negate all other accomplishments. But if you set up a country that legalizes slavery, count slaves as 3/5 of a person in your Constitution, allow slavery to spread across new states in your country, have your Supreme Court declare that negroes CANNOT be citizens, pass laws to ensure escaped slaves get returned, maintain slavery for generations, and then only end slavery AFTER a civil war, you lose the moral high ground to point your finger south and scream, “Racists!” It rings hollow and hypocritical. Especially when Northern cities continue to be hot beds of racism and segregation. There are a number of factual errors in the above. Correct them before addressing the tenuous issue of moral high ground. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/218 "2015-06-26T16:37:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As always, I trust the vast majority of black Americans when it comes to the reality of anti-black racism – they’ve always been correct on this topic. I don’t think controversial topics have to be handed over to a racial subset of the population. But I love your commitment to democracy and majority rule. So here’s a poll that shows 70% of respondents DO NOT find the flag racist: [http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-confederate-flag-racist](http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-confederate-flag-racist) Whew, I’m glad that’s settled. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/219 "2015-06-26T16:41:59Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I don’t think controversial topics have to be handed over to a racial subset of the population. But I love your commitment to democracy and majority rule. > > So here’s a poll that shows 70% of respondents DO NOT find the flag racist: > > [http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-confederate-flag-racist](http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-confederate-flag-racist) > > Whew, I’m glad that’s settled. Hee. The comments down the right side of that page are hilarious. My personal favorite: “Yes slavery did get brought into the Civil War but that was after it started.” Of course, not as hilarious as thinking a random internet poll actually somehow wins a debate against someone who says that the opinions of black Americans matters when determining what is racism, but funny nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/220 "2015-06-26T16:42:51Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I don’t think controversial topics have to be handed over to a racial subset of the population. That’s right, Lamb, the Wolf gets an equal say in what’s for dinner :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=12)