# Ebay is banning listings of confederate flags and related items. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258 "2015-06-23T16:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/221 "2015-06-26T16:45:24Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I don’t think controversial topics have to be handed over to a racial subset of the population. But I love your commitment to democracy and majority rule. > > So here’s a poll that shows 70% of respondents DO NOT find the flag racist: > > [http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-confederate-flag-racist](http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-confederate-flag-racist) > > Whew, I’m glad that’s settled. I’m only talking about views with regards to anti-black racism in America – with regards to this narrow topic, I trust the majority of black people in America (as should you and everyone else). Just the one topic – 'cause they’ve always been right (on this one topic), but the majority of America has not always been right on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/222 "2015-06-26T16:45:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There are a number of factual errors in the above. Correct them before addressing the tenuous issue of moral high ground. I’ll address them when you identify them. I love your response, though, essentially, “the above is wrong but I can’t tell you why.” Awesome and hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/223 "2015-06-26T16:51:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s right, Lamb, the Wolf gets an equal say in what’s for dinner :rolleyes: And an equal say in which slavery is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/224 "2015-06-26T16:53:34Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Hee. The comments down the right side of that page are hilarious. My personal favorite: “Yes slavery did get brought into the Civil War but that was after it started.” > > Of course, not as hilarious as thinking a random internet poll actually somehow wins a debate against someone who says that the opinions of black Americans matters when determining what is racism, but funny nonetheless. Black opinions matter. And so do non-black ones. Or is that racist? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/225 "2015-06-26T16:57:34Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Black opinions matter. And so do non-black ones. Or is that racist? When it comes to anti-black racism, black opinions matter a lot more than non-black ones. History has proven this out – the majority of black people in America were _always right_ through our history about how they were treated, and very often the majority of white people were not (specifically about how black people were treated, not about other topics). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/226 "2015-06-26T16:58:13Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Black opinions matter. And so do non-black ones. Or is that racist? I don’t know. Should I link to an internet poll to find out? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/227 "2015-06-26T17:01:21Z")
Civil rights are not subject to majority rule. Much of our government is set up to protect individuals from the majority. A majority of people saying something isn’t racist, when it’s a symbol of a war by people that wanted to perpetuate their ownership and lack of human rights, and has been co-opted by people who have never renounced that national sin, isn’t compelling. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/228 "2015-06-26T17:03:14Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > And an equal say in which slavery is bad. No, I think the children of slaves get a _bigger_ say than the children of slavers (especially when those children are\* still \*proud of the slavers) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/229 "2015-06-26T17:11:14Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Toy versions of the General Lee for sale on eBay are a threat to justice everywhere? I think there might be bigger fish to fry. While vacationing in the south, a cute little five year old girl was laughing at our Yankee accents. She told us she liked Yankees. We told her we like Southerners. Then she told us her daddy didn’t like Yankees because he said we loved niggers. Addressing toys seems like a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/230 "2015-06-26T17:19:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No they weren’t – in many Union states, they weren’t slaves. > > It didn’t exist in Massachussets at the time (and in many other states), so that’s much less atrocity a-happening in the Union. I beat my wife about 4 times a year; my neighbor beats his wife once a month. He’s a wife beater. As I’m typing this, the neighbor lady has two black eyes; my wife only has one. God damn, my wife’s a lucky gal! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/231 "2015-06-26T17:29:25Z")
If you want to rail against flying the US flag because of atrocities committed while it flew, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/232 "2015-06-26T17:50:17Z")
I’m just waiting for Ben Afleck to get on Antiques Roadshow and find out what his collection of “interesting” cloth napkins REALLY is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/233 "2015-06-26T17:51:51Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I beat my wife about 4 times a year; my neighbor beats his wife once a month. He’s a wife beater. As I’m typing this, the neighbor lady has two black eyes; my wife only has one. God damn, my wife’s a lucky gal! People are different than countries, and are judged differently than countries, as they should be. On anti-black racism, I trust black people as a group, and not you. They’ve always been right about anti-black racism. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/234 "2015-06-26T18:16:10Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I’ll address them when you identify them. > > I love your response, though, essentially, “the above is wrong but I can’t tell you why.” Awesome and hilarious. I could easily tell you why, if you ask politely. Meantime, are we still at the “racism is bad but rudely pointing out racism is worse” stage? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/235 "2015-06-26T18:17:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Meantime, are we still at the “racism is bad but rudely pointing out racism is worse” stage? What my people call “the 21st century”? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/236 "2015-06-26T18:20:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > People are different than countries, and are judged differently than countries, as they should be. > > On anti-black racism, I trust black people as a group, and not you. They’ve always been right about anti-black racism. That would be fine if there such a thing as, “black people as a group.” Unfortunately for you, and your argument that slavery was “more of an atrocity” down south, there is no such thing as, “black people as a group.” Each black person is an individual, just like white people. Your view of blacks as part of a collective helps explain why you think slavery in 4 northern states isn’t as bad as slavery in 11 southern ones. I, on the other hand, think slavery was a crime against each individual slave, not some measured fraction of a larger unit. That is why I am far more offended by Northern slavery than you are. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/237 "2015-06-26T18:36:46Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > That would be fine if there such a thing as, “black people as a group.” There is the opinion of the majority of black Americans. This is a thing that exists in the real world. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately for you, and your argument that slavery was “more of an atrocity” down south, No, I’m arguing that there was more slavery in the South (which is very true), and further, that the Confederate flag was resurrected to prominence specifically to oppose integration and Civil Rights. > [@](#): > > there is no such thing as, “black people as a group.” Each black person is an individual, just like white people. Your view of blacks as part of a collective helps explain why you think slavery in 4 northern states isn’t as bad as slavery in 11 southern ones. I don’t think of black people as a collective – I’m saying that on the issue of anti-black racism, the majority of black people are correct, as they have always been, and their opinions on anti-black racism have far, far more value then others. Slavery in the 4 northern states was as bad as in the 11 southern states, but _there was much, much less slavery in the North than in the South_, and many Northern states outlawed slavery, and the United States ultimately ended slavery, ended other oppressive practices, and advanced Civil Rights. That’s why the Confederacy (and the Confederate flag) is so much worse – they have _all the bad stuff_ with regard to racism as the US, with none of the good stuff (e.g. ending slavery and other oppression), in addition to being founded specifically to advance and protect slavery. > [@](#): > > I, on the other hand, think slavery was a crime against each individual slave, not some measured fraction of a larger unit. That is why I am far more offended by Northern slavery than you are. Except that you aren’t. I haven’t said that – slavery was bad everywhere. The South was worse because it had slavery everywhere (unlike the North, at the time), and because it never ended slavery on its own. And the Confederate flag is worse because it was specifically resurrected as a symbol of oppression. Also, the Confederate flag is worse because that’s how the majority of black people see it, and the majority of black people in America don’t see the US flag as a racist symbol. I trust the opinions of the majority of black people. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/238 "2015-06-26T18:58:14Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Black opinions matter. And so do non-black ones. Or is that racist? Ignorance isn’t an “opinion.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/239 "2015-06-26T22:07:26Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > . . . You ascribe the SOLE reason for secession to slavery, then argue that makes the South worse than the U.S. . . . That’s very different from " . . . the metric used to gauge the wrongness of slavery was secession. . . . " The logical shortfall here is beyond astonishing. The two statements are the converse of each other. The proper re-interpretation is “the metric used to gauge the wrongness of secession was slavery.” That is logically congruent (in essence) to what was said. Re-casting it into the converse is absurdly fallacious. “You might just as well say that ‘I see what I eat’ is the same thing as ‘I eat what I see!’” Your logic fails outside of Wonderland. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/240 "2015-06-27T05:07:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There is the opinion of the majority of black Americans. This is a thing that exists in the real world. That’s not what you wrote. If you’re amending it, fine by me. > [@](#): > > No, I’m arguing that there was more slavery in the South (which is very true), and further, that the Confederate flag was resurrected to prominence specifically to oppose integration and Civil Rights. This is patently absurd. Slavery existed in the U.S. in at least 22 states for various periods between 1776 and 1861. It existed in the Confederacy in 11 states from 1861 until 1865. No matter how you do the math, there is no way to get to MORE slavery in the Confederacy than in the U.S. (Unless, I guess, if you pretend slavery didn’t exist until 1861. Is that what you think?) > [@](#): > > I don’t think of black people as a collective – I’m saying that on the issue of anti-black racism, the majority of black people are correct, as they have always been, and their opinions on anti-black racism have far, far more value then others. I disagree that “the majority of black people” have some special insight into racism that I lack. Hell, the majority of black people have no idea what a Confederate flag even is as the majority of black people live nowhere near North America. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=13)