# Ebay is banning listings of confederate flags and related items. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258 "2015-06-23T16:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/141 "2015-06-26T03:29:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The argument is not that the flag is of a racist or slave-holding country; it is that the country in question was founded for the express purpose of promoting slavery. > Beyond that, the particular flag was specifically raised over a number of state capitols explicitly as a banner of racial segregation in opposition to efforts by the Federal government to reduce the effects of racial laws in those states. Exactly, with one more thing to add. The flag became popular three times: 1. Created to represent the army fighting to preserve slavery. 2. Revived to represent the Klan fighting to preserve white supremacy. 3. Revived to represent the states fighting to preserve segregation. Grotonian’s attempt to link it to the American flag would work if the American Revolution were fought because England was trying to abolish slavery in its colony, and if the flag languished until someone else was trying to end some sort of white supremacy. Sure, terrible things have been done under the American flag: if you want to criticize the US, you know I’m your huckleberry. But the flag is not explicitly created to symbolize doing terrible things. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/142 "2015-06-26T03:34:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Beyond that, the particular flag was specifically raised over a number of state capitols explicitly as a banner of racial segregation in opposition to efforts by the Federal government to reduce the effects of racial laws in those states. Undoubtedly, although I think some of them did use as a fig leaf the approach of the 100th anniversary of the war (which did wind up being celebrated with considerable hoopla). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/143 "2015-06-26T03:38:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Exactly, with one more thing to add. > > The flag became popular three times: > > 1. Created to represent the army fighting to preserve slavery. > 2. Revived to represent the Klan fighting to preserve white supremacy. > 3. Revived to represent the states fighting to preserve segregation. Actually it became popular 5 times. You left out: 1. The [1951 Confederate flag fad](http://time.com/3931754/confederate-flag-fad/), which predated _Brown v. Board of Education_; and 2. The 1970s Confederate flag fad, of which I have linked several examples, and which coincided with the rise in popularity of Southern rock. And IIRC it was also used by some predominantly Southern units during World War II. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/144 "2015-06-26T03:41:44Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > You seem to have a little problem with your verb tenses there: So racism ended in the U.S. in what year? And all quoting an amendment proves is that the U.S. conceded a Constitutional right to own slaves _prior_ to the amendment. By the by, slavery ended in the Confederacy before it ended in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/145 "2015-06-26T03:51:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Exactly, with one more thing to add. > > The flag became popular three times: > > 1. Created to represent the army fighting to preserve slavery. > 2. Revived to represent the Klan fighting to preserve white supremacy. > 3. Revived to represent the states fighting to preserve segregation. > > Grotonian’s attempt to link it to the American flag would work if the American Revolution were fought because England was trying to abolish slavery in its colony, and if the flag languished until someone else was trying to end some sort of white supremacy. > > Sure, terrible things have been done under the American flag: if you want to criticize the US, you know I’m your huckleberry. But the flag is not explicitly created to symbolize doing terrible things. Oh, I didn’t realize that the metric used to gauge the wrongness of slavery was secession. I thought slavery was awful whether you were human chattel in a Confederate or US state. Ignorance fought. Actually though, your argument makes a lot of sense. I guess I could handle being an American slave, but being a Confederate slave is an indignity no human should have to endure. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/146 "2015-06-26T04:09:41Z")
When people say (or said - I haven’t heard it for a while) “the south shall rise again!”, what are they expecting to happen? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/147 "2015-06-26T04:24:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > When people say (or said - I haven’t heard it for a while) “the south shall rise again!”, what are they expecting to happen? That some Yankee will miss the humorous hyperbole and get all bent out of shape? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/148 "2015-06-26T04:40:54Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > . . . slavery ended in the Confederacy before it ended in the U.S. The South had it ended for them, by force, in a process that also ended the Confederacy itself. The Union abolished slavery by the amendment process, as specified in the constitution. Do you really hold war as a more admirable way of solving serious national issues than the democratic process? Eisenhower had to send in troops to Mississippi to integrate the colleges, but is that something you think is a good way of dealing with problems? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/149 "2015-06-26T04:48:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The South had it ended for them, by force, in a process that also ended the Confederacy itself. > > The Union abolished slavery by the amendment process, as specified in the constitution. > > Do you really hold war as a more admirable way of solving serious national issues than the democratic process? Eisenhower had to send in troops to Mississippi to integrate the colleges, but is that something you think is a good way of dealing with problems? No. Do you think what made the Confederacy odious was secession and NOT slavery? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/150 "2015-06-26T04:50:25Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > As for the cultural elements that tie the region together, let’s see: > > Southern cooking > barbecue > accents > jazz > country music > bluegrass > rockabilly > rock and roll > blues > OK, pretty much every American musical form was invented here > Love of storytelling > Military culture > Outdoorsmanship > Hospitality > And I could go on for a page or two. But you’ve read a lot of books, so I’m sure you know all this. There are plenty of things which connect Southerners other than the war. Excellent! Now you’re talking. Any of those things could be the basis for an appropriate symbol for the South and Southern pride (I might stay away from the military culture thing, though, unless it can be completely divorced from Civil War references). Jon Stewart actually suggested barbeque as a symbol of the South. So pick something and go with it, and stay away from a symbol that says racism and hatred to a lot of people. You’ve just proved that loving the South and being proud of the South doesn’t have to mean taking pride in slavery, oppression or rebellion. Now show that by not using the Confederate flag to express your pride. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/151 "2015-06-26T04:56:52Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Now show that by not using the Confederate flag to express your pride. I don’t. But I have enough empathy to understand the perspective of those who do. Which has to be the starting point for changing their minds. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/152 "2015-06-26T05:31:15Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I don’t. > > But I have enough empathy to understand the perspective of those who do. Which has to be the starting point for changing their minds. I meant “you” as in Southerners, not you specifically. I’m trying to understand the perspective of Southerners, but I ask again, why is it important to use a symbol of a lost war, a symbol that means hatred and racism to millions of people, to represent barbecue, music, outdoorsmanship and hospitality? Especially when you (meaning Southerners) have repeatedly been told that other people find the symbol offensive. Insistence on maintaining that particular symbol makes it hard to believe that it’s all about sweet tea and bluegrass rather than white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/153 "2015-06-26T05:47:17Z")
Good job giving a non-hysterical dissent, Spoke, while answering slightly hysterical opposition. We can be against the flag without assuming every use of it has been by knuckle dragging racists. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/154 "2015-06-26T06:50:57Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I meant “you” as in Southerners, not you specifically. I’m trying to understand the perspective of Southerners, but I ask again, why is it important to use a symbol of a lost war, a symbol that means hatred and racism to millions of people, to represent barbecue, music, outdoorsmanship and hospitality? Cite? Where do you get MILLIONS of people? Did you do a poll? > [@](#): > > Especially when **you (meaning Southerners) have repeatedly been told that other people find the symbol offensive.** Insistence on maintaining that particular symbol makes it hard to believe that it’s all about sweet tea and bluegrass rather than white supremacy. Why in the world would you think that your opinion imposes some obligation on others to do anything? Who cares if you and your friends are offended? Go be offended. I find it offensive that you find it offensive. Now that you have been told that your behavior offends me, are you going to change it? Do you feel any obligation at all to stop offending me? What if MILLIONS of Southerners agree with me? Would that be a requisite number for you to stop offending us? So don’t expect others to be convinced by arguments you would never concede as valid. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/155 "2015-06-26T07:28:02Z")
It is hilarious to suggest that the flag of the slavers should represent such a “shared” heritage element (ha!) as, say, the blues, the music originated by poor sharecropping Southern blacks with one of its deep roots in the field hollers of the slaves. So. Fucking. Hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/156 "2015-06-26T11:32:20Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Do I really need to answer why someone would feel proud to be from the South? You don’t have to persuade _this_ proud Pennsylvanian. Go William Penn!! Potholes rule!! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/157 "2015-06-26T11:41:33Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Oh, I didn’t realize that the metric used to gauge the wrongness of slavery was secession. I thought slavery was awful whether you were human chattel in a Confederate or US state. Ignorance fought. > > Actually though, your argument makes a lot of sense. I guess I could handle being an American slave, but being a Confederate slave is an indignity no human should have to endure. Did you just invent a dumb argument, assign it to me, and argue against it? I do believe you did. I never said the metric used to gauge the wrongness of slavery was secession, or anything like that, or anything like anything else you rightly dismissed as stupid in your post. I hope that was fun for you, though. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/158 "2015-06-26T11:53:35Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Now that you have been told that your behavior offends me, are you going to change it? Do you feel any obligation at all to stop offending me? This is a charmingly extreme example of form over function, of process over substance. It’s not the process of telling someone that one is offended that should lead to change. It’s the substance of the offense. Is this really so foreign a concept to you? So if you tell me that you’re offended by my drinking coffee in public, I’m not going to feel obligated to stop offending you. If you tell me that you’re offended by my wearing [this t-shirt](http://www.tshirthell.com/funny-shirts/there-are-two-people-fucking-on-the-back-of-my-shirt/), I’ll ask you why. And if you give me a good reason, I’ll stop wearing it. (spoiler alert: I don’t actually own it, this is a hypothetical). It’s absurd to try to evaluate offensiveness in general, treating someone offended by a longstanding symbol of brutal racist violence as equivalent to someone offended by Terry Pratchett books. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/159 "2015-06-26T11:54:07Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > That some Yankee will miss the humorous hyperbole and get all bent out of shape? It’s not clear to me the intent is humourous or hyperbolic, though I’m admittedly not a Yankee. Was the phrase used in the 1960s when the battle flag was making a comeback and was it humourous or hyperbolic then? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/160 "2015-06-26T12:57:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not clear to me the intent is humourous or hyperbolic, though I’m admittedly not a Yankee. Was the phrase used in the 1960s when the battle flag was making a comeback and was it humourous or hyperbolic then? I have never heard the phrase uttered seriously. Have you? It has always been a joke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=9)