# Ebay is banning listings of confederate flags and related items. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258 "2015-06-23T16:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/161 "2015-06-26T13:04:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It is hilarious to suggest that the flag of the slavers should represent such a “shared” heritage element (ha!) as, say, the blues, the music originated by poor sharecropping Southern blacks with one of its deep roots in the field hollers of the slaves. > > So. Fucking. Hilarious. If you don’t understand the connections from blues to country _and back again_, then you understand very little. Of course black people are integral to Southern culture and have been since Jamestown. Their influence runs all through our shared culture, from music to food to industry to religion to the African influence on the dialect. They are a part of Southern culture, not apart from it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/162 "2015-06-26T13:14:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Do you really hold war as a more admirable way of solving serious national issues than the democratic process? Eisenhower had to send in troops to Mississippi to integrate the colleges, but is that something you think is a good way of dealing with problems? I agree; war was a terrible, unnecessary way to end slavery. (IIRC, every other Western country with slavery ended it without war, apart from the Haitian insurrection, which you can’t fault.) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/163 "2015-06-26T13:16:59Z")
And therefore the best symbol to recognise that shared culture is the battle flag of the group that wanted to own their ancestors? If you want a symbol to represent that shared culture, shouldn’t it be something that isn’t so racially charged and divisive? ETA : responding to **Spoke’s** post 161. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/164 "2015-06-26T13:26:31Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I meant “you” as in Southerners, not you specifically. I’m trying to understand the perspective of Southerners, but I ask again, why is it important to use a symbol of a lost war, a symbol that means hatred and racism to millions of people, to represent barbecue, music, outdoorsmanship and hospitality? Especially when you (meaning Southerners) have repeatedly been told that other people find the symbol offensive. Insistence on maintaining that particular symbol makes it hard to believe that it’s all about sweet tea and bluegrass rather than white supremacy. I tried to explain this upthread. The generation of folks who grew up in the 70s grew up thinking of the flag as an innocuous symbol of Southern pride and rebelliousness, and they have a hard time letting go of that understanding. But if you think they aren’t getting the message about the flag’s offensiveness, you are wrong. It’s just that some absorb and accept the message more slowly than others. I again point to the fact that conservative Republican politicians are bringing down the flag. That would not have happened even five years ago. But aside from that fact, the flag hasn’t been a big thing down here for decades. It was everywhere in the 70s, but you hardly see it any more. Most folks lowered it or removed it long ago from their own property because they don’t want to give offense or don’t want to be perceived as racist. It is really kind of jarring to see one these days because they have become unusual items. You tend to do a double-take at the sight of one. (I get the impression our northern cousins think there’s a Confederate flag decal on every bumper down here.) If you’ve seen the Dukes of Hazzard movie (I haven’t, but I know this from the previews) they have some fun with the altered perception of the flag in these parts. The boys drive the Confederate-flag-bearing General Lee on the interstate and are met with catcalls, derision, and double-takes. But yeah, there are a few holdouts who don’t get that the zeitgeist has changed. They are not all malevolent people. Just maybe some combination of ignorant, stubborn, and nostalgic. And yes, then there are the racists who consciously display the flags for racist reasons. No reaching them, of course, but there are still some good people who remain to be persuaded. Bans are not the way to do it, in my opinion. Those are only going to cause a defensive reaction and a backlash. Gentle shaming works better, I have found. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/165 "2015-06-26T13:31:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Did you just invent a dumb argument, assign it to me, and argue against it? I do believe you did. I never said the metric used to gauge the wrongness of slavery was secession, or anything like that, or anything like anything else you rightly dismissed as stupid in your post. > > I hope that was fun for you, though. It was fun, because it was accurate. You ascribe the SOLE reason for secession to slavery, then argue that makes the South worse than the U.S. Where am I getting your argument wrong? Please correct me. I don’t care about secession, I also don’t care about Shay’s rebellion, but I think slavery was an atrocity. Slavery was an American institution, not a southern one. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/166 "2015-06-26T13:33:10Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Bans are not the way to do it, in my opinion. Those are only going to cause a defensive reaction and a backlash. Gentle shaming works better, I have found. How do you suggest that we gently shame people? I think one good method would be to let them know that they can’t use the mainstream sales websites, such as Amazon and eBay, to purchase offensive items. We haven’t banned the flag (i.e. made it illegal), we’re just saying, “Look, if you want to display a Confederate flag, go ahead, that’s your right. But you’re not purchasing it from _this site_, because we find it offensive.” See, gentle shaming. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/167 "2015-06-26T13:35:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is a charmingly extreme example of form over function, of process over substance. > > It’s not the process of telling someone that one is offended that should lead to change. It’s the substance of the offense. Is this really so foreign a concept to you? > > So if you tell me that you’re offended by my drinking coffee in public, I’m not going to feel obligated to stop offending you. If you tell me that you’re offended by my wearing [this t-shirt](http://www.tshirthell.com/funny-shirts/there-are-two-people-fucking-on-the-back-of-my-shirt/), I’ll ask you why. And if you give me a good reason, I’ll stop wearing it. (spoiler alert: I don’t actually own it, this is a hypothetical). > > It’s absurd to try to evaluate offensiveness in general, treating someone offended by a longstanding symbol of brutal racist violence as equivalent to someone offended by Terry Pratchett books. No, I was specifically responding to the argument that numbers and repeated complaints should result in action. The argument I was responding to made no mention of why the flag is offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/168 "2015-06-26T13:39:36Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > It was fun, because it was accurate. You ascribe the SOLE reason for secession to slavery, then argue that makes the South worse than the U.S. Where am I getting your argument wrong? Please correct me. I didn’t say the South is worse than the US. I said the confederate battle flag is worse than the US flag. This is a subtle difference. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/169 "2015-06-26T13:40:54Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > How do you suggest that we gently shame people? Works better coming from inside the culture than from outside. It’s happening, if y’all would relax and let it, rather than trying to force-feed it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/170 "2015-06-26T13:41:00Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > No, I was specifically responding to the argument that numbers and repeated complaints should result in action. The argument I was responding to made no mention of why the flag is offensive. Once again, your argument only remotely addresses what you’re responding to. No, the post you’re responding to didn’t repeat yet again the reasons why folks find the confederate flag offensive; it assumes that you’ve read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/171 "2015-06-26T13:41:15Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > The whole response seems to be getting silly. Not having the flag flying over state property, sure, though I’d be happy to consider exceptions (memorials where the thing wasn’t done as ham-fistedly as in South Carolina.) Probably a good idea to change Mississippi’s state flag while we’re outraged. And sure, retailers are perfectly free not to sell or allow third parties to list such merchandise. But there have been calls to rename forts, remove statues, and generally remove all traces of the Confederacy from America. There might be people who are better known today and worthy of honor in Statuary Hall, for instance. But at least don’t act like removing a statue that few know about will actually do anything. The whole thing has quickly felt like it’s gone into major overreach mode on the left. In the abstract, I would agree with you. Most confederate statutes and site names are probably not offending anyone. The problem is not the left; it’s the people (largely) on the right who are saying “hey, how come everyone is whining about South Carolina but ignoring Georgia and their actual confederate state flag, huh?” If “The Left” ignores some confederate monuments and complains about others, the opposing side calls them hypocrites. > [@](#): > > And there’s the latest silliness of Apple removing Civil War games from their App Store because of the historically correct use of the flag in a strategy game. Yes, this is very dumb. But whatever, I’m an Android user. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/172 "2015-06-26T13:45:31Z")
[QUOTE=Spoke] But aside from that fact, the flag hasn’t been a big thing down here for decades. It was everywhere in the 70s, but you hardly see it any more. Most folks lowered it or removed it long ago from their own property because they don’t want to give offense or don’t want to be perceived as racist. It is really kind of jarring to see one these days because they have become unusual items. You tend to do a double-take at the sight of one. (I get the impression our northern cousins think there’s a Confederate flag decal on every bumper down here.) [/QUOTE] This may be an eye of the beholder thing. When I was in Kentucky a few years ago, I was struck by how often I saw the flag. Coming from Canada, it seemed to me to be very commonly displayed. Maybe the display has gone down, but it was still noticeable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/173 "2015-06-26T13:46:33Z")
I see it quite frequently here in Central Florida, even though we only have pockets of The South here. Probably at least once a day. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/174 "2015-06-26T13:48:21Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Works better coming from inside the culture than from outside. It’s happening, if y’all would relax and let it, rather than trying to force-feed it. As for you, have you read “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”? Some passages from it echo the arguments here: > [@MLK](#): > > You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city’s white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative. > … > You may well ask: “Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn’t negotiation a better path?” You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. > … > Some have asked: “Why didn’t you give the new city administration time to act?” . . . My friends, I must say to you that we have not made a single gain in civil rights without determined legal and nonviolent pressure. Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals. > > We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This “Wait” has almost always meant “Never.” We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.” The calls for gentle action, for letting things resolve naturally, are the same sorts of calls folks made to MLK, and that he rejected so strenuously. They’re the same calls folks made to those arguing for same-sex marriage. And they’re just as misguided this time. Putting hard pressure on the pro-confederate flag brigade is exactly the right thing to do, especially at this moment. Claims that they’ll just dig in their heels, and that pressure is counterproductive, are not borne out by the history of civil rights work. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/175 "2015-06-26T13:49:29Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Cite? Where do you get MILLIONS of people? Did you do a poll? No, but various [polling organizations](http://qz.com/#435268/chart-americans-are-quickly-turning-on-the-confederate-flag/)did. As of June 22, 64% of Americans disapprove of the flag, which certainly qualifies as millions. > [@](#): > > Why in the world would you think that your opinion imposes some obligation on others to do anything? Who cares if you and your friends are offended? Go be offended. I find it offensive that you find it offensive. Now that you have been told that your behavior offends me, are you going to change it? Do you feel any obligation at all to stop offending me? What if MILLIONS of Southerners agree with me? Would that be a requisite number for you to stop offending us? So don’t expect others to be convinced by arguments you would never concede as valid. Maybe this is a novel concept for you, but I try to live my life by not offending people. That includes not engaging in everyday rudeness to people, and it also includes not displaying symbols that offend people when those symbols have no other purpose, and there are plenty of better ways to make my point. As I said, if you are proud of being Southern, wear a T-shirt that says so. If you like Southern music, use the logo of your favorite band. If you like Southern food, share that love with others. But don’t fly the Confederate flag unless you want people to think that you’re supporting the ideals of the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/176 "2015-06-26T13:52:58Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > How do you suggest that we gently shame people? I think one good method would be to let them know that they can’t use the mainstream sales websites, such as Amazon and eBay, to purchase offensive items. We haven’t banned the flag (i.e. made it illegal), we’re just saying, “Look, if you want to display a Confederate flag, go ahead, that’s your right. But you’re not purchasing it from _this site_, because we find it offensive.” See, gentle shaming. I don’t think what eBay and Amazon are doing is gentle shaming. It is disingenuous publicity-grabbing. The General Lee is banned, but [this item remains](http://www.amazon.com/258stickers%C2%AE-Playstation-Console-Remote-Controllers/dp/B00YYLJRKA/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1435096549&sr=8-9&keywords=Swastika)? Yes, thank you for your moral leadership, Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/177 "2015-06-26T13:54:42Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I don’t think what eBay and Amazon are doing is gentle shaming. It is disingenuous publicity-grabbing. > > The General Lee is banned, but [this item remains](http://www.amazon.com/258stickers%C2%AE-Playstation-Console-Remote-Controllers/dp/B00YYLJRKA/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1435096549&sr=8-9&keywords=Swastika)? Yes, thank you for your moral leadership, Amazon. For pity’s sake. Across the bottom of the screen, under “People who bought this item also bought,” there’s a Confederate Flag. What does this suggest to you? For someone defending others from being jumped on, maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to jump on others. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/178 "2015-06-26T13:56:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I didn’t say the South is worse than the US. I said the confederate battle flag is worse than the US flag. This is a subtle difference. Ok, so please elaborate. What happened under the Confederate flag that DIDN’T happen under the U.S. one (and for far longer)? Slavery? Racism? White supremacy? Secession? Black codes? Jim Crow? Segregation? To declare one flag to be the flag of slavery, racism, and hate and the other to be innocuous requires some pretty staunch hypocrisy. Unless, of course, blacks really were treated worse in the Confederacy than in the Union, an argument I would just LOVE someone to make. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/179 "2015-06-26T13:57:16Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Ok, so please elaborate. What happened under the Confederate flag that DIDN’T happen under the U.S. one (and for far longer)? tap tap–is this thing on? Does someone else want to try explaining? Grotonian, your question shows that you still have no idea what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258/180 "2015-06-26T14:00:34Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Ok, so please elaborate. What happened under the Confederate flag that DIDN’T happen under the U.S. one (and for far longer)? Slavery? Racism? White supremacy? Secession? Black codes? Jim Crow? Segregation? You cannot _possibly_ be dense enough to seriously ascribe Jim Crow to the US flag in the context of a debate about the confederate flag. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebay-is-banning-listings-of-confederate-flags-and-related-items/723258.md?page=10)