# Ebonics: a bad idea becomes a horrible reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062 "2005-07-18T23:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/241 "2005-07-20T20:43:16Z")
> [@](#): > > You’ll also note that most white kids get a lot of the slang and grammar wrong, Hmm…interesting statement…very interesting… ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/242 "2005-07-20T20:43:32Z")
Okay, I’m going to venture out on a limb and say we all agree that there is a problem (although we may disagree on scale) with some young African-Americans rejecting schooling. One example of this is rejecting Standard English. Some African-American youth consider speaking Standard English as “acting white” or a “betrayal” or “uncool”. This impedes their ability to compete on the job market and lowers their chances of success in the greater world. The method of “You guys speak lazy bad English, stop now!” hasn’t really worked very well, has it? If it did work, we wouldn’t have the above problem. This method is divisive (it pits “our speech” against “their speech”), condenscending (we’ll teach you guys how to talk, wouldn’t you guys like to know that!) and contributes to the idea that school is a “white” establishment that is opposed to or irrellevent to the Black community. Instead, I’d like to see "I think you’ve probably noticed by now that some of you speak differently at home than you hear on television, in school, and at your friend’s houses. Some of you have probably been told that your English is “bad” or “lazy” or “slang.” This isn’t true. Many African Americans speak a form of English known as AAVE or Ebonics. Our way of speaking has roots in West Africa and it is a part of our history as a people- and the history of America. However, people have to learn to speak differently in different situations. One of these places is school. You can speak however you like on the playground and at lunch, but in the classroom and on school assignments we expect you to speak Standard English. There are some amazing writers that have written in their own vernacular- from Shakespeare to Toni Morrison. We will read some of them and I hope that each one of you developes your own stunning and real voice in our creative writing exersizes. But for papers, presentations etc. I expect you to use the standard English and will be grading based on that." What is wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/243 "2005-07-20T20:45:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think these kids/teens know very well the difference between their own speach patterns and the ones they feel are being foisted on them. Isn’t that why they resist them? When I was taught English Lit, we read Robert Burns and Shakespear and some Newfie poet whose name I can’t recall right now. They all illustrated different speach patterns and I got that. We all got that. I think these kids get it too. Got it, yes. But then we still imitated Shakesperean-era English by adding “eth” to the end of every word. (“letseth goeth toeth classeth”). It was close enough and understandable enough that it wasn’t until very much later that I finally figured out that “eth” went with third person singular verbs, “est” with the second person singular, or “ye” was plural and I was far from the worst student in class. Providing an explanation of where and how the difference lies makes it much more possible to choose between dialects (or did no one read the link that **Zoe** provided earlier in the thread). And if the teachers themselves do not know the differences, how on earth are they going to convey that to the students? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/244 "2005-07-20T20:46:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think being wrong is anything to be ashamed of, particularly when your in SCHOOL. There are different kinds of “wrong”. 1+1=3 is wrong. Using, say, the word “jumper” to mean “sweater” is wrong in some situations, but right in others. It’s not the same as 1+1=3. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/245 "2005-07-20T20:46:26Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > Give me a couple days, and I’ll be happy to… While you are looking, I have a close friend born in China and educated in Hong Kong. Living in Canada for many years and well steeped in her culture and roots. She’s quite accepting and well integrated into Canadian society and has expressed disappointment many times at her fellow Chinese immigrants. Seems they don’t like her cross cultural acceptance and integration. Evidently, in their eyes, she’s a “Banana” - yellow on the outside but white inside. I’m told this is a very common critisism leveled by otherwise well educated and successful chinese immigrants against their fellow countrymen (and women) when they get a little too well integrated with the white folk. Nice. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/246 "2005-07-20T20:52:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We must have our wires crossed. > 1)Who has the filter? > 2) Are you saying that I don’t know how my friends spoke in high school? I would say that since the alternative forms of “to be” usage have been a hallmark of AAVE throughout its history, (I have a late 1960s linguistics textbook that addresses the forms and I have seen references that are much older), then either your classmates were not speaking “classic” AAVE (there are regional variations in that dialect just as there are in other dialects) or else your memory has been affected by your recent experiences and you do not recall the exact usage of your high school friends. In either event, the AAVE usage of “to be” variants are many decades old and do not reflect a recent change in the dialect. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I didn’t mean _exclusively_ from media. > > But you’ll agree that media is a good reflection of society, yes? > > I mean, isn’t that how hip hop culture has entered the burbs? It’s not like white middle/upper class kids are hanging in the inner cities with the homies. Actually, I doubt that they pick up much from the media. I have yet to see a TV show where the writers actually had a good ear for any particular dialect or for current slang. Picking it up from DJs might work, but for a language to really be learned, one needs to be able to hear and respond to it to get the corrective feedback from a native speaker. I’m sure white suburban kids pick up street slang, jive, or hip-hop _expressions_ from music and radio, individual words or phrases, but I do not know many who can actually speak AAVE–and those who can are either in an inner suburb or involved in cross-city sports where they can interact one-on-one with actual speakers. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/247 "2005-07-20T20:52:44Z")
Accused “coconut” right here! ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/248 "2005-07-20T20:57:27Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s not what I said. I said “So the question is, even if we assume it is a dialect, is teaching in that dialect the best way to have children acquire the tools they’ll need to take full advantage of society.” And that was based on the quote from the article in th OP, the meaning of which there is still confusion about. Nobody. Is. Talking. About. Teachers. Teaching. In. That. Dialect. Even assuming arguendo that the quote from the article in the OP has the meaning to which you attribute it, I refuse to believe that a school is proposing classes in which teachers conduct classes in AAVE, and would need to see another cite or two from you in that regard. To the extent that your OP was saying, “Teaching in AAVE is a bad idea,” congratulations. Your viewpoint is overwhelmingly the most popular one in this thread. Do you have a problem with teachers teaching AAVE speakers English, in English, as if it were a second language? If you do, back away from the teaching-in-AAVE strawman once and for all, 'cos none of us have been defending it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/249 "2005-07-20T21:05:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If we were talking about different languages I would agree with your point. […] > > WHAT THE HECK IS SO WRONG ABOUT TELLING A CHILD THAT THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG WHEN THEY ARE, IN FACT, DOING SOMETHING WRONG? You want to “translate” for the kid? Tell them you are “translating” from somehting that is wrong into something that is correct? Or is there no longer a “correct”? […] > > I don’t think being wrong is anything to be ashamed of, particularly when your in SCHOOL. The reason you’re there is because you don’t know everything! And now you can’t even say their speech is incorrect?!! **magellan01** , at this point you’re sounding as though you’re just refusing to listen to what other people here are saying. **Everybody agrees** that AAE-speaking schoolchildren **need to learn** correct standard English. And **everybody** agrees that AAVE is **not** correct standard English. Just as English is not correct standard Dutch, and Dutch is not correct standard German, and so on and so forth. Yes, the structures of one language/dialect **are not correct** when used in a different language/dialect, even if the two are closely related. We get it. We agree. We already knew it. The real question here is, what is the most effective way to get children to **understand** how the structures of their native dialect or language differ from the closely-related dialect or language that they’re learning in school? You seem to be absolutely adamant, to the point of mouth-foaming screaming capitals, in refusing to consider any approach other than merely telling the children that their use of native-dialect structures is “wrong” or “incorrect”. Some people (who happen to have considerably more knowledge of linguistics and language teaching than you do) have come up with the idea that it might be helpful to approach this task with the aid of some second-language-instruction methods. These would simply help teachers and students to recognize the **differences** between correct AAE/Ebonics and correct standard English, so that the children could learn to use correct standard English more consistently and effectively. (It would **not** prohibit anybody from explaining that some structures of correct AAE/Ebonics are considered incorrect in standard English, which is what you seem to be so scared about.) For some reason, this plausible and benign pedagogical proposal has upset you so much that you needed to start a debate thread ranting about how “horrible” it is, and have now been reduced to yelling and fuming about “pansies” :dubious: and “feel-good PC lefty nonsense”. Evidently, it’s your emotional attachment to a particular view of this subject that really matters to you, not facts or informed opinion or fighting ignorance. (As for your weak rejoinder that you would “agree” with the point about the second-language-instruction model if only we were discussing two different languages rather than two different dialects, let me tell you that English and Dutch are a lot more like two different dialects than you may suppose. Consider the following examples of equivalent phrases in each of them, and see if you think they would really be mutually unintelligible to the respective speakers: ) English: That is good. Dutch: Dat is goed. English: I see the cat, sitting on the table. Dutch: Ik zie de kat, zittend op de tafel. English: It is unnatural that he has not answered you. Dutch: Het is onnatuurlijk dat hij u niet heeft beantwoord. English: Help me! No, go away! Dutch: Help me! Nee, gaa weg! ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/250 "2005-07-20T21:08:45Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > Odds are that the term African-American will no longer be in vogue in another 10-15 years and AAVE will be changed again. I think that the NAACP would have to change their name first. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/251 "2005-07-20T21:13:22Z")
IMHO, a lot of this comes down to an attempt to homogenize the language in a school system. If the people teaching speak “ASE” (just a convenient acronym, relax), then the most efficient way to spread information about history, mathematics, and physics (or Auto, or Woodshop) is to have everyone on the same page, working with the same language tools. To legitimize AAVE as a communicative tool within the school system is counterproductive. There’s a reason we have ESL classes for Mexican Spanish (another dialect), Russian, Ukranian, and even Gaelic (yes, there are Gaelic ESL classes here in Chicago). The goal: to level the field for ease of communication. If we do a flash-forward 20 years, bearing in mind the fluidity of the dialect, the legitimization of AAVE could have a detrimental effect. If the dialect has split so far at that point that it requires an ESL class, who have we served? Also, the chestnut is not always wrong…if a child has been told that it’s “OK” not to sound like the controllers of wealth and prestige, won’t he stick out as “uneducated” and “lazy”? This isn’t because he speaks AAVE, but because he didn’t bother to conform. Is it a little condecending to label “White Guy Corporate” as the root dialect in the US? Maybe, but it’s the dialect spoken by the government, and by the fruit of our governmental style (capitalism leads to corporations). More to the point, our country has always been run by elite white men. Why should this not be the overarching dialect? How does one improve one’s status in the US…by work and advancement, mostly (ignoring pop divas and such). Like it or not, a society is a creation of conformity. There is always room for variation, and I would think it should be supported to the utmost. When we take what is considered “wrong” by a fair majority and try to make it the equal of the going trend, all we do is set it up for ridicule, or at best, a narrow appreciation. My $.02 -Cem ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/252 "2005-07-20T21:20:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m sure white suburban kids pick up street slang, jive, or hip-hop _expressions_ from music and radio, individual words or phrases, but I do not know many who can actually speak AAVE–and those who can are either in an inner suburb or involved in cross-city sports where they can interact one-on-one with actual speakers. And while we’re on the subject, do we have a pretty good idea of how many black kids are actually speaking AAVE (proper?) and not some bastardized version of ASE, slang, jive, hip-hop and what have you? I’m curious because it would be a damn shame if AAVE were as foreign to most of them as it is to … well… most of us. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/253 "2005-07-20T21:30:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And while we’re on the subject, do we have a pretty good idea of how many black kids are actually speaking AAVE (proper?) and not some bastardized version of ASE, slang, jive, hip-hop and what have you? > > I’m curious because it would be a damn shame if AAVE were as foreign to most of them as it is to … well… most of us. A question which this raises to me is: How do you know WHAT “AAVE” actually IS? Obviously there’s no one singular definition of SAE either, but there are benchmarks: Manuals of style and dictionaries. Specifically to **liberty** , how do you know that “white kids are getting it wrong”? What is wrong, and who says so? Basically, what baseline is it that you’re using to establish what is right? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/254 "2005-07-20T21:32:09Z")
Another point that I don’t think has been emphasized yet (sorry if it has and I missed it): The “second-language-instruction” model is often **more** useful, not less useful, when the “two languages” in question are actually two closely-related dialects. That’s because children need to understand how to tell the difference between **acceptable** linguistic variations **within** one dialect and **unacceptable** variations transplanted from the **other** dialect. When the native language and the learned language are very distinct, this sort of confusion is **less** likely to occur. For example, a native English speaker learning French won’t be tempted to use the English phrase “I’m speaking” when s/he means to say “je parle” in French. The two languages are so different that students **can’t** inadvertently substitute a phrase from one into the other. However, when it comes to standard English and AAE/Ebonics, the variations **within** standard English are often **greater** than the differences **between** standard English and AAE. In standard English, the expressions “I speak”, “I’m speaking”, “I’ll speak”, “I’m going to speak” are all correct—but “I speakin” and “I be speakin” are **incorrect**. Why? They aren’t **obviously** different from the correct structures, in the way that “I’m speaking” is obviously different from “je parle”. With two dialects that are so similar to each other and so variable in themselves, how can I determine which usages are correct and incorrect in each of them? This is when it really helps to have a clue about the grammatical structures of both dialects and the relations between them, rather than just pounding away at the rote memorization of seemingly arbitrary choices between “correct” and “incorrect” variations. > [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > When we take what is considered “wrong” by a fair majority and try to make it the equal of the going trend, all we do is set it up for ridicule, or at best, a narrow appreciation. Noted. Who here is seriously suggesting that we can or should make AAE/Ebonics in any way the “equal” of standard English, either as an accepted “standard” dialect or as a language taught in schools? Please take that strawman out to the cornfields where it can be of some use, ‘cuz it ain’t doin’ any good here. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/255 "2005-07-20T21:43:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Another point that I don’t think has been emphasized yet (sorry if it has and I missed it): [It has](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6380634&postcount=28) [been mentioned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6384304&postcount=123), [but not emphasized](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6385094&postcount=138). I thought your earlier Dutch comparison was a good example, but it was dismissed, as well. I think your attempt, here, is stronger. Maybe it will come across. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/256 "2005-07-20T21:44:15Z")
I knew I shouldn’t have gotten myself sucked into this debate… > [@magellan01](#): > > But its a term that the experts must find meaningful and helpful, as it is in virtually every article or website on the subject I’ve seen. What experts? What websites? No linguist (aka, language experts) would use the term “lazy.” None, zip, zero, zilch. Have you looked at any pro-ebonics websites? Or only ones that you agree with? Check out the site I suggested before ([www.cal.org/ebonics/](http://www.cal.org/ebonics/)) and if anybody uses the term “lazy,” well, then, I’ll be a monkey’s uncle. > [@](#): > > That’s not what I said. I said “So the question is, even if we assume it is a dialect, is teaching in that dialect the best way to have children acquire the tools they’ll need to take full advantage of society.” And that was based on the quote from the article in th OP, the meaning of which there is still confusion about. OK, then. THEY"RE NOT GOING TO BE TEACHING IN AAE!!! If anyone on the board of ed suggested it, well, then, they’re idiots, and I think we’d all agree. Journalists can be wrong. In fact, they’ve been very wrong repeatedly on this topic. > [@](#): > > Thanks for clearing that up. Can you tell me, isn’t one a subset of the other? Isn’t it common to speak of one language having many dialects? Yes, very common. > [@](#): > > It is in some of the Charter Schools. Cite? I don’t mean to be antagonistic, I’m honestly curious. > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t this just lead to a society of Babel, where it would be near impossible for a kid to learn anything. Um, no, not in the least. A language spoken by this many people in so large an area is going to have dialects no matter what. That’s the nature of natural language. And, for the record, I hate the Babel analogy. The tower of Babel was a punishment from God because these people were so goddamned arrogant to think they could go back to speaking all one language. Yeesh. > [@](#): > > You could say that all these dialects would amalgamate into one rich language. But isn’t that what SE is, with many words and expressions taken from many other languages. No, I couldn’t say that. Dialects, once they separate, I would venture to say don’t melt back together in one unified uber-dialect. That’s not the nature of language. And AAE is also a rich dialect with words and expressions taken from many other langauges. > [@](#): > > So, wouldn’t we eventaully be exactly right back to where we are. Trying to get the kids to learn the “accepted” language of their time, the one that will give them the best opportunities in the verbal society in which they live? You missed the point of my paradise. In my fantasy world, there would be no one accepted dialect, they would all be seen for what they are: valid, useful, logical ways of expressing oneself. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/257 "2005-07-20T21:46:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And while we’re on the subject, do we have a pretty good idea of how many black kids are actually speaking AAVE (proper?) and not some bastardized version of ASE, slang, jive, hip-hop and what have you? > > I’m curious because it would be a damn shame if AAVE were as foreign to most of them as it is to … well… most of us. Oh, they speak AAE. Most of them, at least. Some speak standard English, some speak Latino English, it all depends, but it’s AAE. The grammar, the phonology, the phonetics, it’s all there. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/258 "2005-07-20T21:49:01Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > A question which this raises to me is: How do you know WHAT “AAVE” actually IS?? I believe some linguists make claims about knowing this. I can’t really argue that intelligently nor do I have much basis for doubting it. But I’d really like to know how all these kids are learning AAVE when there does not seem to be any evidence of structured programs or schools teaching it anywhere. Are there? Have I missed a link or post about it? I believed I asked this question earlier on but didn’t see a response. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/259 "2005-07-20T21:52:39Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > Oh, they speak AAE. Most of them, at least. Some speak standard English, some speak Latino English, it all depends, but it’s AAE. The grammar, the phonology, the phonetics, it’s all there. From the school of “word of mouth”? How much of it is slang and jive and all sorts of other stuff? I imagine the proportion varies wildly as well. I mean proportion of AAE in SAE, etc. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/260 "2005-07-20T21:57:02Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > A question which this raises to me is: How do you know WHAT “AAVE” actually IS? linguists sit and listen to hundreds of people talk, write down things they have in common, ask them about the way they speak, and on and on. > [@](#): > > Specifically to **liberty** , how do you know that “white kids are getting it wrong”? What is wrong, and who says so? Basically, what baseline is it that you’re using to establish what is right? There is a cannon of certain features that are characteristic of AAE. These include the grammatical features such as habitual be or copula deletion, or certain phonological features like aks for ask, and so on. These things are passed down and passed around in the communities that speak it. When I say white people get it wrong, I mean things like using the habitual be for an action or state that is not habitual. Often the slang is taken at face value, with much of the underlying meaning is lost. I did a paper on the use of “holla” among white people, and most use it as a form of “holler.” In most AA communities, it has sexual connotations. I know this is a bit circular, but the baseline is what speakers of AAE do. It’s hard to be more specific because there’s a lot of debate as to what AAE is, how much it encompasses, and if every AA speaks it. I’m not sure if this helped any. There are some good books out there on the topic, including, African American English by Lisa Green or The Development of African American English by Walt Wolfram and Erik R. Thomas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=14)