# Ebonics: a bad idea becomes a horrible reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062 "2005-07-18T23:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/261 "2005-07-20T21:57:25Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Nobody. Is. Talking. About. Teachers. Teaching. In. That. Dialect. Even assuming arguendo that the quote from the article in the OP has the meaning to which you attribute it, I refuse to believe that a school is proposing classes in which teachers conduct classes in AAVE, and would need to see another cite or two from you in that regard. To the extent that your OP was saying, “Teaching in AAVE is a bad idea,” congratulations. Your viewpoint is overwhelmingly the most popular one in this thread. Do you have a problem with teachers teaching AAVE speakers English, in English, as if it were a second language? If you do, back away from the teaching-in-AAVE strawman once and for all, 'cos none of us have been defending it. Thanks. I. Can. Only. Go. By. What. I. Read. Sorry. I. Didn’t. Call. You. For. Your. Interpretation. Of. The. Aritcle. Before. I. Posted. This. Thread. I do not agree with your characterization of the tenor of this thread. Regardless, I have no problem with teachers teaching SE to AAVE speakers. I pray that they do. The question goes to the method to be used. And as I pointed out in my post # 208, I am not an advocate of what is called the Bilingual Education approach. That leaves ESL and Immersion. I’d prefer it to be whichever works best, on which there is no consensus. If you changed nothing else, I think the ESL approach would make more sense. But as I’ve mentioned in a much earlier thread, I think it’s a mischaracterization to put the problem we are discussing in the same boat as people entering this culture with a different primary language. The latter group has not only not rejected SE, they are seeking to master it. The problem is not so much one of language as it is of culture. I do not accept that just because the two problems might share the word “language” in defing them, that they are, in fact, the same problem. Therefore, we should not expect that the methods use to solve one will solve the other. I would favor the “tough-love” approach advocated by some of the successful Charter Schools, which as far as I’ve read is a combination of ESL and Immersion, with as little of the former as possible. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/262 "2005-07-20T22:00:05Z")
> [@](#): > > But I’d really like to know how all these kids are learning AAVE when there does not seem to be any evidence of structured programs or schools teaching it anywhere. They are learning it through immersion. 😉 Seriously. Every child learns the “mother tongue” simply by hearing it and speaking it in the home and neighborhood. The only people who need to study languages are those who move to locations with new languages after they have already learned their natal tongue(s). All of the native English speakers in this thread learned our dialects in exactly the same way. Some of us are fortunate enough (from the perspective of finding employment or conducting business) to have a dialect close enough to SAE that we need only pick up a handful of “formal” rules in school to go out into the world. The ability to speak casually or formally is known as code-switching and when one’s native dialect is close enough to SAE, we pick up individual rules without much trouble. When entire grammatical structures differ (as in the often cited usages of “to be” among the different American dialects), then there is more difficulty in learning the code-switching. See **Kimstu** ’s last post for some of the problems regarding the teaching of code-switching. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/263 "2005-07-20T22:02:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > From the school of “word of mouth”? > > How much of it is slang and jive and all sorts of other stuff? > > I imagine the proportion varies wildly as well. I mean proportion of AAE in SAE, etc. I must admit you’re going beyond the scope of my knowledge. I’m mostly a sociophonetician with a bit of variationist thrown in. 😉 But, yes, language is spread by word of mouth… smartass 😛 And like the definitions of language and dialect, the definitions of slang and jive are fuzzy. Like I just said in my last post, the definition of AAE is fuzzy. I wish I had better answers. I can point you in the direction of some literature that would make this a bit clearer. I highly recomend English with an Accent by Lippi-Green for anyone interested in these kinds of questions and language ideology. I’m tired. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/264 "2005-07-20T22:05:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I would favor the “tough-love” approach advocated by some of the successful Charter Schools, which as far as I’ve read is a combination of ESL and Immersion, with as little of the former as possible. Where are these Charter schools? The failing schools in Cleveland? The barely better than public schools in Milwaukee? I’d be curious about a number of aspects of these schools, including the nature and condition of the incoming students, the participation of the parents, the teraching methods, and the actual results (and how they were measured). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/265 "2005-07-20T22:07:45Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > I’m tired. Well, it’s been a pretty rough and draining brawl for a newbie’s first debate. You have done well, young Skywalker. Sleep now you may. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/266 "2005-07-20T22:08:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > "Ebonics is a different language, it’s not slang as many believe,’ Texeira said. "For many of these students Ebonics is their language, and it should be considered a foreign language. These students should be taught like other students who speak a foreign language.’ > > Texeira said research has shown that students learn better when they fully comprehend the language they are being taught in." > > What is being described here is the approach of bilingual eduation, in which the content of one’s classes are taught in his/her native tongue. I interpret i this way because: > > 1. it is being classified as a distinct language, not a dialect > 2. the model being described is one of bilingual education, not ESL, as I previously and mistakenly characterized it Where, specifically, is the model of bilingual education mentioned? Nothing in that quote suggests bilingual education rather than ESL. I can’t believe we’re reading the same article. > [@](#): > > 1. given #2, the last paragraph seems to me to clearly state that kids will be taught in their native primary “language”. > 2. it wold make no sense for these words to be uttered an have the meaning be that the intent is to teach the kids in SE On the contrary, it would make perfect sense: “…research has shown that students learn better when they fully comprehend [Standard English,] the language they are being taught in.” > [@](#): > > I have no expertise. But–and please correct me if I am wrong–if something is a dialect, wouldn’t someone from two generations ago be able to undestand the new generation? If not, isn’t it merely slang? Would someone from the 1930’s be able to understand the current generation? He’d certainly recognize most of the grammar, but some rules have changed slightly, and a lot of the lexicon has changed. “23 skiddoo” is slang; the use of “he be \” to indicate habitual action is dialect. I suspect your exposure to AAVE mostly comes from kids, who are known for using slang and often can’t even be understood by their parents (which is one of the purposes of slang). > [@](#): > > So far as separating it out, that’s part of the problem I’m having. The attitude seems to be that whatever comes out of the mouths of these kids is perfectly fine. Is there any of it that people are willing to say is just plain wrong and is not attributed to “dialect”? I don’t know. Is there any of _your_ speech that you’re willing to say is just plain wrong? Is it just plain wrong when kids today call something “sweet” instead of “interesting”, or when someone from England pronounces “car” as “cah”? (Sounds like lazy pronunciation to me! ;)) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/267 "2005-07-20T22:11:56Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > I’m tired. Thanks for sticking it out. You (among others) have made this interesting and informative. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/268 "2005-07-20T22:42:49Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > Right. Cuz with outsourcing of India, the only bright future will be being polygot and speaking Hindi. Most of those call centers are in the state of Karnataka, where the language is Kannada. Down South in India, they reject Hindi with a passion. They insist on either the local Dravidian language or English. The only people down South who speak Hindi are transplanted Northerners. Unless the India call center industry has been expanding so rapidly that they now have some in Hindi-speaking areas, who knows? In which case you’d be right. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/269 "2005-07-20T22:50:04Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Unless the India call center industry has been expanding so rapidly that they now have some in Hindi-speaking areas, who knows? In which case you’d be right. Must be, there are some big-ass call centers in predominantly-Hindi Delhi, and I know some native Hindi speakers who work at them and train other Hindi speakers to work at them. Call center training is also big in other predominantly-Hindi cities such as Jaipur. > [@Johanna](#): > > The only people down South who speak Hindi are transplanted Northerners. That’s kind of an exaggeration: plenty of Indians in the Dravidian-speaking areas learn some Hindi in school, particularly in Kerala. You’re right that there’s also a lot of vehement opposition to it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/270 "2005-07-20T23:23:11Z")
[QUOTE=Askia] Magiver. > [@Askia](#): > > 1. So in your worldview any attempt to study history by the accomplishments, events and challenges of a specific subgroup is automatically condescending. Uh-huh. “Automatic” is too extensive an adverb to be used in debate. but yes, in the broad sense, that’s what I’m saying. Lewis Howard Latimer is an interesting person to study from a local “favorite-sons” context, but not on a national scale. Presenting him for recognition during Black History Month is condescending. > [@Askia](#): > > 1. Despite the inaccuracies and omissions seen in the first five graphs and hodgepodge organization in the rest of the article, you think Texiera is accurately quoted or that he knew what he was talking about? Uh-huh. No, which is why I retracted my statement. > [@Askia](#): > > 1. Cite where it says this is a twelve year program and coherently explain how in your opinion it is a “willful intent to deceive.” I’ll wait. That’s my opinion so you’ll have to keep waiting. However, to expand on my opinion, I expect the program to fail because it doesn’t address the biggest problem it’s trying to solve (absence of useful parental influence). It stands every chance of delaying the language skills needed to move up the educational ladder. > [@Askia](#): > > 1. In no contemporary recognized pedagogy I’m aware are “poor language skills” defined as “the inability of urban children to comprehend anything taught in school.” Incidentally, why just ‘urban’ children? Little white kids in the suburbs are masters of the language? Why just urban children? That was the subject of the article. I suppose that’s why there was no mention of little white suburban kids and the difficulties language has posed in the pursuit of a college degree. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/271 "2005-07-20T23:42:49Z")
Gurgaon, about a half hour outside of Delhi, is a pretty big call-center area. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/272 "2005-07-21T00:42:07Z")
From the San Bernardino City Unified School District: [July 19, 2005 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE EBONICS NOT PART OF THE CURRICULUM IN SAN BERNARDINO](http://www.sbcusd.k12.ca.us/new/19/uploads/NR04-0506.pdf) (.pdf) > [@](#): > > On July 18, The Sun newspaper included comments from Mary Texeira, a sociologist who is not affiliated with the San Bernardino City Unified School District. The views she expressed in the article titled “Ebonics suggested for district” are completely separate from and unrelated to the work of the school district. > > The San Bernardino City Unified School District is not incorporating Ebonics into our instructional curriculum, nor has the School Board ever considered it. As several of us had noted, the news report was so badly mangled that we suggested that exclamations of horror be suspended until such time as the facts were available. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/273 "2005-07-21T00:46:50Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > I think that the NAACP would have to change their name first. Um, that is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. The AA doesn’t stand for African-American. Or is this a whoosh? Other thoughts, such as they are: By all means, give the teachers help in understanding the grammar of Ebonics. I still say the SAE should be emphasized and reinforced in classrooms. How is this a bad or racist thing? I don’t get it. Are white students to be taught Ebonics? Why? Is that an inherently racist remark–that I don’t want precious academic time spent on a fairly useless skill? SAE will always stand a student in good stead. How so Ebonics? Surely the rejection of the language of “the Man” is a cultural divide that BOTH “sides” need to work on? This problem is more than language. Why is up to mainstream society (globally now) to change to suit one subgroup? Using SAE, I am able to communicate around the world. I am sorry that it is the tongue of the dreaded white Europeans, but it is. I just don’t get it. Og knows I want Kanika or Jamal to succeed as well as Ashley or Jason–why do we have to alter an entire approach to help one group feel better? Do we cut out anti-Semitic references in Shakespeare to spare Jewish people? It’s a bad example because language is life, and Shakespeare is not. But does anyone get what I’m saying? I like the idea of cross codiing. I much prefer the notion that decent funding, dedicated teachers and involved parents can do more to boost students than any Ebonics program. Off soapbox now. No offense meant to anyone here. Just exasperated a bit. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/274 "2005-07-21T00:48:23Z")
:smack: Must preview. Just saw the clarification. But the discussion is stil valid–and needs to occur in more places than just here… ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/275 "2005-07-21T00:52:41Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Are white students to be taught Ebonics? No. > [@](#): > > I just don’t get it. Og knows I want Kanika or Jamal to succeed as well as Ashley or Jason–why do we have to alter an entire approach to help one group feel better? We don’t. It’s the same approach we use with other students that come into school speaking a different language. The only difference is in recognizing “Ebonics” as a separate dialect with its own rules–thus qualifying it for that same approach we already use–rather than a failed attempt at Standard English. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/276 "2005-07-21T01:17:58Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Um, that is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. > > The AA doesn’t stand for African-American. > > Or is this a whoosh? Not an intentional whoosh, but it looks like you got one any way. It is possible that the term African American is going to fall out of favour, but I have a hard time seeing that happen before the term ‘Colored People’ falls out of use. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/277 "2005-07-21T01:36:00Z")
**Mr2001** --thank you for that succinct wrap up. Now I get it. Frankly, I think the AA terminology is longwinded and dated. But that’s another thread…(and AA beats CP hands down) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/278 "2005-07-21T07:26:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **magellan01** : Can. Only. Go. By. What. I. Read. Sorry. I. Didn’t. Call. You. For. Your. Interpretation. Of. The. Aritcle. Before. I. Posted. This. Thread. I don’t understand how you could have read the linked interview with the Ebonics teacher and still have had so many misapprehensions and misunderstandings about the Ebonics curriculum. If you missed the link, I think it was posted on page 2 or 3 of this thread. She clearly explains that the purpose of the program is to introduce the students to the more formal English which they will be expected to use away from home in the workplace when they grow up. As with other language training, that begins at an early age and continues until the student is proficient in formal English. **liberty3701** , your contributions have been refreshing, informative and funny! Welcome! **eleanorigby** , I believe that I read that the program in Oakland would be open to all students who are interested. That would be in keeping with the policies of most public schools. But I could be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/279 "2005-07-21T13:16:39Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I don’t understand how you could have read the linked interview with the Ebonics teacher and still have had so many misapprehensions and misunderstandings about the Ebonics curriculum. If you missed the link, I think it was posted on page 2 or 3 of this thread. Could you be more specific? I’ve been going back and rereading some the links provided, But I can’t seem to find the one you’re referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/280 "2005-07-21T14:22:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, why don’t you tell me? True, it is a lot easier to wave your arm and say “Oh, it’s been covered.” Even if it has, why don’t you tell me your reasons. Maybe the magic words blossomimg from your superior intellect will be able to penetrate my dense melon. Because at some point, repeating oneself and repeating what other people have said seems like an abuse of the board and a waste of time. > [@](#): > > We’ve turned into a bunch of pansies…Fine, “No, Johnny, that is incorrect.” Feel free to drop the “no”, as well. After all such a negation of Johnny’s being is unneccessary. > > I don’t think so. We all heard, “Johhny you got question #12 wrong. The correct answer is\_\_\_\_.” The result? Learning. Why the need to tip-toe around facts of the universe? I covered this in a post or two earlier, as well. Going for the record for the number of meltdowns in one thread? Really, all it seems you are interested in is some kind of personal validation yourself. You want people to go around saying that other people’s dialects are “wrong,” and it makes you feel good. And on what basis is it “wrong”? Yes, there are rules in Standard American English and when testing knowledge of that dialect there are right and wrong _answers_. But you seem to want to expand that to a declaration that an entire dialect’s syntax, grammar, and vocabulary is “wrong.” Why? Because people who know something about language say it’s wrong? No. Because it will help students learn SAE? No. Because of simple cultural bias? > [@](#): > > It’s just the same feel-good PC lefty nonsense that got us to where we are today. Congratulations. Yeah, it’s feel-good PC lefty nonsense that’s responsible for our societal problems. > [@](#): > > At some point I’m going to compile the “everything-is-equally-wonderful” quotes from this thread and put them into a time capsule. Maybe a thousand years from now some archeologist looking in to the demise of the United States will find it and learn from our mistakes. I believe you can collect declarations from the beginning of time regarding how society has reached its end and culture is on its way out. And it’s rather easy to predict the end of the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=15)