# Ebonics: a bad idea becomes a horrible reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062 "2005-07-18T23:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/581 "2005-08-01T03:05:50Z")
(Hems and haws.) Okay – got me there. Dammit. I’ll be back! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/582 "2005-08-01T04:05:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That has already been shown to you. No, it hasn’t. It was a question about my characterization of one of your posts. > [@](#): > > Nowhere did I say, nor even imply, that a person’s laziness cannot be evident in that person’s speech. Sure you did. Me, Post #549: 1. “Can speech be lazy?” You, Post #562: 1. “No. Laziness is a character flaw.” > [@](#): > > What you seem to be missing here is the simple concept that one person’s speech pattern does not a dialect make. I truly have no idea where you got this from. > [@](#): > > I have already directed your attention to the moderator’s warning in this thread. “Physician, heal thyself” after you snidely offer me a “quick lesson in logic” is worthy of the moderator’s rebuke?! I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > Your assertions seem to be: > [ul][li]SAE is the mother tongue of all English dialects.[/li] > Not my assertion. Here is what I do think: SAE is a dilalect of the larger English language. It has, by virtue of its scope and longeivity, birthed other dialects, hence it can be considered a mother language of sorts. Other dialects I would consider “sister” dialects/languages, e.g., Standard Australian and Standard South African. AAVE seems to fall somewhere in between. It’s tight relationship to SAE is obvious. At the same time, it can deviate greatly. From my exposure to it, it seems to be more of an offshoot dialect than a sister language. It is also clear that is more of a distinct “language” than other American dialects, which are often simply regional accents with some local vocabulary. > [li]Since some people are lazy in speech (which assertion I reject, btw), an entire dialect is lazy.[/li] > Not my assertion. Again, I have no idea where you got this. > [li]The prestige dialect is somehow better, inherently, than the other dialects of a language.[/li] > It depends how you define better. Morally, no. Practically, in that it will avail the speaker of more opportunity in his or her society, yes, it is better. > [li]That the non-prestige dialects of English came about from failures of its speakers.[/li] > I might say that the “failure” of some speakers has contributed to some dialects. Many other factors have contributed, as well.[/ul] > [@](#): > > Most importantly, for English, your assertions about mother tongue fall flat on the simple evidence that there is more than one prestige dialect, each with a different history. To which assertions are you referring? A request: you might not be aware of it, but your tone drips with arrogance. Seriously. If you could try to strip your posts of it, I would appreciate it. If you can’t, I accept it, but will no longer reply to you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/583 "2005-08-01T04:17:01Z")
If you could cease your reading of what I did not say into what I did say, you wouldn’t be having this problem of seeing arrogance in my posts as there is none there. You continue to assert things that are not there are really there. I really don’t care if you don’t reply to me as I don’t enjoy discussing things in a debate unless there’s honest debate present. Your methodology does not qualify. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/584 "2005-08-01T12:56:31Z")
> [@](#): > > SAE is a dilalect of the larger English language. It has, by virtue of its scope and longeivity, birthed other dialects, hence it can be considered a mother language of sorts. Other dialects I would consider “sister” dialects/languages, e.g., Standard Australian and Standard South African. AAVE seems to fall somewhere in between. It’s tight relationship to SAE is obvious. At the same time, it can deviate greatly. From my exposure to it, it seems to be more of an offshoot dialect than a sister language. It is also clear that is more of a distinct “language” than other American dialects, which are often simply regional accents with some local vocabulary. Cite? I understand these are your beliefs, but if you’re going to post them as assertions, you have to back them up with more than your opinion. And calling a dialect merely a “regional accent with some local vocabulary” just proves that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Dialects can vary in pronounciation, lexicon, syntax, phonology, pragmatics; the first two might be the most obvious, but they do not a whole dialect make. Before, people gave examples of how the verb “to be” differs in AAE; that is a difference in grammar. Some differences in phonology include rules about when you can delete final consonants. A difference in pragmatics is “Bragadocio,” like when Muhammed Ali said just about anything he’s famous for saying. Those are all differences between AAE and standard English. And that ain’t even the tip of the iceberg. What do you mean “It’s [AAVE’s] tight relationship to SAE is obvious”? Do you mean that they’re both English? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/585 "2005-08-01T13:04:59Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > And calling a dialect merely a “regional accent with some local vocabulary” just proves that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Careful, liberty! He’ll call you arrogant too. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/586 "2005-08-01T13:41:43Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > When you return, could you send me e-mail regarding your experiences at the conference? I’d be more than happy to. > [@](#): > > BTW, there are quite a few common linguistic myths which, I’ve discovered, remain in the minds of some folks even when presented with evidence to the contrary. An example: I work with one gentleman who continues to maintain that “Asians can’t say the [r] sound.” We are located in Korea. Korean, which language he is making very good progress in learning, has both the [r] and [l] sounds. He is aware that at least one Asian language has the [r] sound yet he continues to believe the linguistic myth. Is Korean an isolate? I read somewhere that it was, and then someone said it wasn’t, and now I just can’t remember who I beleived more… My personal favorite linguistic myth is that people in Appalachia speak Elizabethan English… > [@](#): > > Careful, liberty! He’ll call you arrogant too. I’ve been called worse. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/587 "2005-08-01T14:18:45Z")
Korean is an isolate, at least according to what I was taught recently at UCD. A lot of people think that it might be related to Japanese but it’s really not, other than some loan words from Japanese and, of course, the massive amount of loan words that both Japanese and Korean got from Chinese. Other people think both Japanese and Korean might be related to Turkish. Apparently, those folks base their conclusion on these languages being agglutinative. Funniest thing I ever saw happen regarding the term dialect was when I was visiting my girlfriend of the time in Tokyo, back in 1992. She’s from Zamboanga on Mindanao and thus her native language is actually Spanish. One of her neighbors was from the native Tagalog area of the Philippines. That neighbor said “Zamboanga is a funny dialect of Tagalog, don’t you think?” I really should’ve written down all those cool curse words the girlfriend used in response. The upshot, though, was her asking the neighbor how someone could be so stupid as to consider Spanish to be the dialect of a Tagalog. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/588 "2005-08-01T14:20:44Z")
> [@](#): > > to be the dialect of a Tagalog should be > [@](#): > > to be a dialect of Tagalog ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/589 "2005-08-01T15:07:46Z")
It seems that you are so intent in finding fault with what I say that you are merely glimpsing at the words or ignoring their meanings. > [@liberty3701](#): > > I understand these are your beliefs, but if you’re going to post them as assertions, you have to back them up with more than your opinion. First off, I never asserted them to be fact, just opinion. If you will read again what I wrote I think you will see that: “Here is what I do think: SAE is a dilalect…” "…dialects I would consider “sister…” “AAVE seems to fall…” “From my exposure to it, it seems to be…” > [@](#): > > And calling a dialect merely a “regional accent with some local vocabulary” just proves that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Dialects can vary in pronounciation, lexicon, syntax, phonology, pragmatics; the first two might be the most obvious, but they do not a whole dialect make. I call your attention to my statement: “…than other American dialects, which are often simply regional accents with some local vocabulary.” This was not meant to be a formal definition. To most, that would be obvious. I was merely trying to draw a distinction between dialects falling at opposite ends of the spectrum–where one end is “almost a full-fledged language” and the other is “merely an accent”. I think you know this, yet you still seem to be in a captious mood, continuing to treat this thread as a linguistics classroom. You might find this helpful in seeing your bias. It’s from The Coumbia Guide to Standard American English. An accent—whether an American Southern accent or a German or other foreign accent in English—is often just another label for a dialect different from one’s own. In a technical sense, however, accent involves only sound, whereas dialect can involve sound, spelling, grammar, and vocabulary. Before you dive into your keyboard again, please notice the seventh word from the end. Link: http://www.bartleby.com/68/14/1814.html > [@](#): > > What do you mean “It’s [AAVE’s] tight relationship to SAE is obvious”? Do you mean that they’re both English? I meant they have immense overlap. Would you prefer that I count all the words and other similarities they have in common? Liberty3701, let’s get one thing straight: You know more about linguistics. You see, there it is in print for the world to see. Maybe the SDMB has some official disignation they can give you. Please look at the OP. Linguistics does play a role in the discussion, and you’ve offered a lot. But perhaps you’d be less frustrated (I know I would) if you started a thread examing the linguistic nuances of whatever you have a pet peeve about. Either that or code switch. Save the technical linguistic hat for your conference in October. Maybe _try_ to understand the larger points being made instead of looking at every phrase with a linguistic magnifying glass. If not, I’ll leave you and your pompous, learned friend to pat each other on the back and move on. This thread has probably gone on too long anyway. Why not take a linguistics issue that is near and dear to your heart and start a thread? Other linguists are bound to find it interesting. And you would have the benefit of an insightful, quick-moving debate with your peers. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/590 "2005-08-01T15:24:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If not, I’ll leave you and your pompous, learned friend to pat each other on the back and move on. The Pit, not Great Debates, is the place for personal insults. Did you not understand that simple rule? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/591 "2005-08-01T15:26:13Z")
On second thought, this thread HAS gone on too long. For me, anyway. Thanks for the time. All. See you in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/592 "2005-08-01T22:00:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It seems that you are so intent in finding fault with what I say that you are merely glimpsing at the words or ignoring their meanings. > > First off, I never asserted them to be fact, just opinion. If you will read again what I wrote I think you will see that: > > “Here is what I do think: SAE is a dilalect…” > > "…dialects I would consider “sister…” > > “AAVE seems to fall…” > > “From my exposure to it, it seems to be…” I was responding to what I quoted, not to everything you ever said. > [@](#): > > This was not meant to be a formal definition. To most, that would be obvious. I was merely trying to draw a distinction between dialects falling at opposite ends of the spectrum–where one end is “almost a full-fledged language” and the other is “merely an accent”. I think you know this, yet you still seem to be in a captious mood, continuing to treat this thread as a linguistics classroom. I was merely trying to add some insight from my training that I thought would help this debate along. And half the time I honestly didn’t understand your claims > [@](#): > > You might find this helpful in seeing your bias. My bias? what, being educated? You can say “can” all you want, but since we’re talking about AAE, I was using those examples. Where you draw the line between dialects is fuzzy. > [@](#): > > I meant they have immense overlap. Would you prefer that I count all the words and other similarities they have in common? I’m not allowed to ask an honest question for clarification. I’m sorry if you think it came out snide, but I can’t control your readings. > [@](#): > > Liberty3701, let’s get one thing straight: You know more about linguistics. You see, there it is in print for the world to see. Maybe the SDMB has some official disignation they can give you. Please look at the OP. Linguistics does play a role in the discussion, and you’ve offered a lot. But perhaps you’d be less frustrated (I know I would) if you started a thread examing the linguistic nuances of whatever you have a pet peeve about. This is uncalled for. I’m not here to prove how smart I am; I just thought I had something to add to this discussion seeing as I study this stuff. Linguistics doesn’t just play a role in this discussion, it is at the heart of this discussion. With a better understanding of just what is at stake, then the politics and pedagogy can be discussed with some intelligence. > [@](#): > > Either that or code switch. Save the technical linguistic hat for your conference in October. Maybe _try_ to understand the larger points being made instead of looking at every phrase with a linguistic magnifying glass. I have tried my hardest not to speak in jargon, because I know it can be obnoxious. And I looked at every phrase because you can’t just throw stuff out there without backing it up. That’s why I joined this board, because you can’t get away with passing off your opinion as fact, and people admit when they were wrong. > [@](#): > > If not, I’ll leave you and your pompous, learned friend to pat each other on the back and move on. This thread has probably gone on too long anyway. I admit it was bad form to have a side conversation, but I was excited to see someone else who shares some of my passions. There’s still no need to call him pompous. > [@](#): > > Why not take a linguistics issue that is near and dear to your heart and start a thread? Other linguists are bound to find it interesting. And you would have the benefit of an insightful, quick-moving debate with your peers. This is a linguistics topic that is near and dear to my heart. Sorry for disagreeing with you. This thread should have died long ago, because it’s clear we weren’t listening to each other. I’ll admit I don’t know when to stop, but dammit, this is an important topic, and I’ll stand on my soap box till the cows come home if that helps people understand dialects and the importance of diversity. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/593 "2005-08-01T22:27:39Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll stand on my soap box till the cows come home Bossy! Bo-o-o-o-o-ossy! - ::: d & r :::\* ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/594 "2005-08-01T23:08:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Bossy! Bo-o-o-o-o-ossy! > > - ::: d & r :::\* Don’t make me hit you with my soap box, 'cause I will… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GillianBoardman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GillianBoardman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GillianBoardman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/595 "2005-08-01T23:23:05Z")
**Liberty3701** I just want to say that I’ve been avidly following this thread. I didn’t have anything to add to it, but what you are saying has been clear to me from the start. You did not use jargon, except at times when you had to in order to say what you mean. Because obviously, you do know what you are talking about, you’ve studied it, you work with it, and clearly you keep up to date in it (conference). I’m not saying that there can be no discussion of the best way to teach code switching (whoo hoo, now I’m using jargon too!), but obviously the participants need to be speaking the same language. And no, that pun wasn’t intended. It would have made for an even more interesting discussion if people on the other side of the question had argued with something to back up their opinions, and surely there must be people who study linguistics who do question the wisdom of the proposal (although I don’t study linguistics and it makes sense to me) because I’ve never known of a profression which didn’t have different schools of thought on matters. So it would have been nice to know why they didn’t think it was such a hot deal, but I guess we’ll never know because nobody in this thread argued from that position. I apologize if this post doesn’t fit the rules of **GD** , but I thought the thread had just about peter’d out and I could maybe get away with it. Also, I usually don’t gush, but I though you really argued your case well and with integrity. As did **Monty** , and **Tomndebb**. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/596 "2005-08-02T00:00:54Z")
Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![GillianBoardman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GillianBoardman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GillianBoardman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/597 "2005-08-02T00:10:50Z")
You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/598 "2005-08-02T18:35:18Z")
Yes, thank you… I’m kinda sad this debate turned out how it did. I would have liked to have heard more from the opposing side as well, especially when it came to pedagogical questions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=29)