# Ebonics: a bad idea becomes a horrible reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062 "2005-07-18T23:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/81 "2005-07-19T06:57:08Z")
**Zoe** > [@](#): > > What a loss it would have been if his particular Southern dialect had been somehow sanitized and “standardized” for television production. I agree, as it would have been a loss if James Earl Jones spoke in any other way than his eloquent, Shakespearean manner. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/82 "2005-07-19T06:57:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Please tell me you know that this is, at best, a weak argument. It’s not an argument. Will you please remember the context of your own comments? I said that because you said I was arrogant and thought my knowledge exceeded mere mortals. If other people here are saying the same things I am, I think it’s obvious my point is not beyond normal comprehension. I think I’ve largely restated the points of others thus far, which is part of why I got into that “why am I bothering?” tangent. > [@](#): > > So, how have I made it clear that I “don’t want to listen”? In the post where you said you were amazed and disheartened. > [@](#): > > Was I suposed to just step in line and parrot what your precious majority was saying. If you haven’t noticed, it’s called Great Debate, not Great Consensus. :rolleyes: Notice how long I’ve been posting here? Please spare me the lecture. There is a clear difference in my mind between a disagreement and a failure to listen. You still don’t understand some points on linguistics that several people have brought up, and those are important in this topic. You can’t deal with this effectively by reducing it to some kind of well-worn debate about slang and “lowering school standards.” > [@](#): > > To your question: I simply do not see how you can equate someone who comes here from, say, China with someone who enters the school from a bad neighborhood in, say, San Bernardino. I’m talking about _the way you teach them_. You could - I’m supposing here - be born in San Bernardino to Chinese parents and not speak any English. And if a kid is born in that situation, he needs to be taught English a certain way. > [@](#): > > He is surrounded by television, magazines, newspapers and billboards. He knows 90% of it. He rejects a lot of it because it is not cool. You know why he does these things? Do you possess psychic powers? If so, please explain them. I’m kidding, but I think it’s absurd to project motives onto people like this. And again, written and spoken English can be pretty different animals. > [@](#): > > We need to bring him into the fold, not legitamize–whatever you prefer to call it. This just allows him to live an even more insular existence. Right, we need black people to be more like everybody (white) else. That’ll fix everything. Look: as somebody else said, it is not a “new” thing to “legitimize” this language. It has plainly existed for a long time and been studied for decades. I think a lot of this argument has nothing at all to do with the program discussed in the original article. If that suggestion is bad, what is the correct way to teach kids to speak a more common form of English? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/83 "2005-07-19T07:02:55Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Now who that is not a “hypothetical black kid” doesn’t understand this? > Is it really that different? Well, reading this is fairly easily understood. But speaking that way aloud is a very specific dialect. Speaking Corporate American isn’t the same as African-American by a long shot, now is it? And can’t nobody even guarantee that bright future is gonna be there, the economy being what it is, so why the fuck should I sit here an’ subject myself, knowhatImsayin, to being clowned by my boys talking like some puta bitch? I’m saying, generally, you gots to give respect to get some. You? You can’t even acknowledge that Ebonics is a legitimate mother tongue to some. Aine no kid gonna sit in yo’ class listening to yo’ saditty ass talkin’ about how he don’t talk correct. He gon’ go out there and go for his. F— you nigga, I’m outta here! ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/84 "2005-07-19T07:04:20Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **Zoe** > > I agree, as it would have been a loss if James Earl Jones spoke in any other way than his eloquent, Shakespearean manner. I guess you didn’t see him as Jack Johnson in THE GREAT WHITE HOPE. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/85 "2005-07-19T07:06:27Z")
I’m from the streets b----! ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/86 "2005-07-19T07:08:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess you didn’t see him as Jack Johnson in THE GREAT WHITE HOPE. You know that’s not what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/87 "2005-07-19T07:11:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, now I understand. Since there are so few opportunities for our kid from San Bernardino, and they are getting fewer by the day, why teach him proper English? HELL, why teach him anything at all? Just build more prisons and more efficient morgues. Interestiing take… > > You know, it really helps to think things out a little before pecking at the keys. Likewise it pays to spend a few years INTERACTING with these kids before you start pecking out your outmoded pedagogy on your keys, baby. That kid from San Bernadino has probably been disinterested in the educational system since sixth grade and if he isn’t already lost to the gangs, drug dealers, pimping and thuggery, he probably dreams about rapping, acting or playing ball. You might get him to adopt a more formal speech style playing to those interests but you won’t by screaming about his needing “proper English.” School is not going to be his primary influence – that’s the home. The school needs to get his attention for six hours a day – and it starts by understanding and appreciating his own mode of expression. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/88 "2005-07-19T07:15:09Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > You know that’s not what I meant. Actually, I was just checking. There are plenty of successful, smart, articulate black women and men who don’t fit the mode you describe. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/89 "2005-07-19T07:23:24Z")
Absolutely. I think maybe I have a slant for going against type. People look at me and expect me to probably barely speak English but I open my mouth and you think your watching the nightly news. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/90 "2005-07-19T07:26:08Z")
“you’re”, ugh it’s late. Can we just go to bed now? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/91 "2005-07-19T07:28:45Z")
(waving imperiously) You may sleep. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/92 "2005-07-19T07:29:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not an argument. Will you please remember the context of your own comments? I said that because you said I was arrogant and thought my knowledge exceeded mere mortals. If other people here are saying the same things I am, I think it’s obvious my point is not beyond normal comprehension. You mentioned that most people agree with you in an attempt to “prove” your position was correct and mine incorrect. I merely pointed out it was a weak tactic (not to mention a logical fallacy). What makes you think I don’t comprehend your point. Isn’t it possible that I do, yet jsut do not agree with it. Can you see how condescending that is? > [@](#): > > In the post where you said you were amazed and disheartened. No. Ill have to ask you again. Where in the post have I made it clear that I “don’t want to listen”? > [@](#): > > Notice how long I’ve been posting here? Please spare me the lecture. There is a clear difference in my mind between a disagreement and a failure to listen. Then you probably know that you should be able to substantiate your claim. So, I ask again: Where in the post have I made it clear that I “don’t want to listen”? > [@](#): > > You know why he does these things?..but I think it’s absurd to project motives onto people like this. Great. The one time I refer back to one of the previous posts you keep bringing up, you have aproblem with that, too. Post #32: "One key challenge educators face is that simply getting students to adopt Standard American English as something relevant. Doing so is often met with hostility, belligerent defiance and the dreaded accusation of “acting white.” This is also accepted by anyone who looks at the problem. Feel free to ask others. > [@](#): > > I think a lot of this argument has nothing at all to do with the program discussed in the original article. If that suggestion is bad, what is the correct way to teach kids to speak a more common form of English? Excelent question. I’ll think on it as I hit the hay and get back to you tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/93 "2005-07-19T07:33:34Z")
Ciao, Roma! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/94 "2005-07-19T13:35:24Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > First, African-Americans aren’t immigrants. A very important distinction. Second, thousands of AAs have managed to do the same. Did you read the article I cited? Look at the code switching part. Third, today’s immigrants are afforded many of the things you seem to be against. You can take driver’s licenses and other tests in various languages, and they have ESL programs in many, if not most, schools. Are you advocating we get rid of them? Your basic point that people should suck it up like others have done before them is counter productive to the goals of our society. If you can make things easier for others, and help make them more productive citizens, while not substantially inconveniencing others, I think it’s reasonable to do so. It’s like saying we shouldn’t have wheelchair ramps because wheelchair bound people prior to those laws being in place were able to get around okay. I’m not against anything… please don’t make incorrect assumptions based on a single post. I happen to be one of those immigrants who learned English as a second language in an immersion program. I knew many of my fellow immigrants who went through the same process. Those that were effectively immersed in the new language picked it up fairly quickly. In fact we picked up two new languages simultaneously (English and French). Those that were “coddled” by a mix of new and mother tongue took longer and never quite reached the same level of mastery. And leveling the wheelchair analogy at me is just unfair. > [@brickbacon](#): > > I think it’s important to note that acceptance of AAVE will also help people of other ethnic groups. Anecdotally, AAVE seems to be embraced by many people of various ethnic and racial groups. Plenty of white and Hispanic kids express themselves with AAVE. I’m not making any claims about AAVE not being a legitimate language/patois. > [@brickbacon](#): > > This “lowered expectation” you speak of is purely a byproduct of your arrogance, and unfamiliarity with AAVE and the education system that exists in most schools. If you had bothered to read the cite I linked to, you would see that the opinion that AAVE is a lazy, corrupted, disjunctive version of standard American English is not supported by the facts. Please read the article before you respond. Not arrogance. Personal experience with having to learn a new language in a setting much like we are discussing here. And thank you **Askia** and **TomnDeb** for your explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/95 "2005-07-19T14:05:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You mentioned that most people agree with you in an attempt to “prove” your position was correct and mine incorrect. I merely pointed out it was a weak tactic (not to mention a logical fallacy). No, I did not. > [@magellan01](#): > > But wait, THERE IS NO WRONG. Or is it that your lingual abilities are so above mere mortals that you’re afraid I wouldn’t understand you, so why bother? Well that would be as convenient for you as it would be pleasurable for me. > [@Me](#): > > [After quoting the above]Seems like most of the posters here agree with me, and I’m willing to bet some of them know much more about linguistics than I do. So, again, I was responding to the “arrogant” thing. Can we move on with our lives? I don’t feel like continually recapping a conversation you were in. Don’t believe me, if it makes you happy, and keep thinking I meant things that are just not there. > [@](#): > > What makes you think I don’t comprehend your point. Isn’t it possible that I do, yet jsut do not agree with it. I don’t think it’s impossible you understand because _you disagree_, it’s because of the way you talk about language. > [@](#): > > Ill have to ask you again. Where in the post have I made it clear that I “don’t want to listen”? You keep asking the same question after I answer it, and I wonder if this in any way substantiates my point. I told you where I got that feeling. > [@](#): > > "One key challenge educators face is that simply getting students to adopt Standard American English as something relevant. Doing so is often met with hostility, belligerent defiance and the dreaded accusation of “acting white.” In your post, I felt you were saying black kids learn to speak AAVE/ebonics because they refuse to learn ‘good’ English. You say they know how to speak it and just don’t. **Askia** is talking about hostility to learning it. If you meant the same thing he does, then nevermind. Although in that post you seem to refer mostly to written English, which is a separate thing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/96 "2005-07-19T14:07:11Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Wow. Someone needs to teach the author of that article the difference between a sentence and a paragraph. I hope that was a mistaken transcription from the article to the server where it’s stored, and not the way it was originally written. If you are referring to the fact that the paragraphs are short – one or two sentences – then be assured it’s not a mistake. It is a common practice in American journalism to use paragraph breaks as visual elements to help break up “grey” blocks. In most newspapers, paragraphs are usually no more than a couple of sentences long. If a story needs to be stretched to fill a space, then a paragraph break might be used after every sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/97 "2005-07-19T14:10:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The dialect has been known by several stuffy sounding terms through the years that at least dignify it with the fact that some academician felt it was important enough to study as a science and bestow a stuffy title upon it. Williams’ coinage of “Ebonics” simply came up with a “catchier” word that is more easily abused by people who do not believe that it is a genuine language or dialect. **A** frican- **A** merican **V** ernacular **E** nglish is a lot harder to build a stupid joke around. I prefer terms such as "Black English Vernacular’ or “African-American Vernacular English” because they reflect at least an attempt to be descriptive and serious about the subject. “Ebonics” sounds offensive to me, because, what the heck does “ebon” have to do with language? “Ebony” = dark-coloured substance =\> dark-skinned people’s language? Why name a language based on skin colour? (Language, dialect, it’s really irrelevant for the purposes of this issue. You have to speak in a dialect to speak in any language, so we all speak _some_ dialect, even if it is a standardised dialect.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/98 "2005-07-19T14:25:57Z")
From uh linguist’s point o’ view, we’s can distinguish between current slang dat changes rapidly an’ longterm features o’ uh speech community dat gots persisted over tyme. The study o’ African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) focuses mo’ on da latter than da former. Don’t assume dat just cuz AAVE iz nonstandard English dat it’snecessarily all slang. The grammatical characteristics o’ AAVE gots been documented going back many years. with muh beeotch I’m not too thrilled about this software’s claim to [“Ebonify”](http://www.joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp) my English. Plus it gratuitously added the final phrase about a “beeotch” without my input. That’s misogynist and I object to it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/99 "2005-07-19T14:39:13Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’m not too thrilled about this software’s claim to [“Ebonify”](http://www.joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp) my English. Plus it gratuitously added the final phrase about a “beeotch” without my input. That’s misogynist and I object to it. \ Yeah, but I typed in a french song lyric and got: > [@](#): > > Sur le ponte D’Avignon on est danse, on est danse. and git Sheniquah’s ass back ova’ heeah. ROTFL! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/100 "2005-07-19T14:52:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Get this, please: there is no right and wrong in English. No objective standard. There is no right and wrong way to speak a language provided you are able to communicate with others. AAVE/Ebonics users can communicate with each other, ergo, it’s a dialect, not gibberish or “talking wrong.” Ebonics does not indicate a lack of education any more than speaking Spanish, French or Spanglish does. It might indicate a lack of exposure to _other forms of English_. And it certainly gives excuses for people like you to yammer on about how uneducated they are. This might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on the SDMB. I had no idea that there are people out there willing to actually defend ebonics. Un-fucking-believable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=6)