# Ebonics: a bad idea becomes a horrible reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062 "2005-07-18T23:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/101 "2005-07-19T14:56:00Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > That lead needs to be scrapped, the SANKOFA Intitative pilot pushed to the top, the tidbit about what _sankofa_ means included immediately afterward, an interesting and relevant direct quote from SOMEBODY connected with this from the school system needs to be presented in the first five graphs, (the higher the better)… etc. Where are the copy editors of yesteryear? The more electronic journalism becomes the more useless young journalists are revealed to be. There was a time when there was a cigar-chomping editor to slap them around and turn them ito WRITERS but I swear that now articles are lucky to be sent through a spell checker before they are published. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/102 "2005-07-19T15:30:31Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > From uh linguist’s point o’ view, we’s can distinguish between current slang dat changes rapidly an’ longterm features o’ uh speech community dat gots persisted over tyme. The study o’ African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) focuses mo’ on da latter than da former. Don’t assume dat just cuz AAVE iz nonstandard English dat it’snecessarily all slang. The grammatical characteristics o’ AAVE gots been documented going back many years. with muh beeotch > > I’m not too thrilled about this software’s claim to [“Ebonify”](http://www.joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp) my English. Plus it gratuitously added the final phrase about a “beeotch” without my input. That’s misogynist and I object to it. Where I’m from we call this type of speech ‘Jive.’ Not African-American Vernacular English, not Ebonics…it’s called ‘Jive.’ ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/103 "2005-07-19T15:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Where I’m from we call this type of speech ‘Jive.’ Not African-American Vernacular English, not Ebonics…it’s called ‘Jive.’ We get it. You don’t like how them black folks talk. You’ve made it abundantly clear, however, that you don’t have the first clue about the linguistic aspects of this discussion, and so your opinion is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/104 "2005-07-19T16:07:27Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I don’t know about anyone else, but I sure would’ve understood _Hamlet_ and Dante’s _Inferno_ a LOT more had they been translated into, say, mall-speak or something. But I don’t think it’s the right idea. The point of teaching these classics is to _understand_ the ‘language’ they were written in. I wasn’t allowed to say, “Shakespeare wrote funny and I don’t think I should have to learn this until it’s something I can understand.” Well, I guess I was _allowed_ to say it…but you understand. Did you go to high school? One of the most common activities around is asking kids to translate Shakespeare in to modern youth-oriented language. I fondly remember our skater-punk version of McBeth (How fair and fowl a day it is! Thats why I’ve got one pant leg up and one down!) This sort of activities not only forces kids to really dig in to the text, but to understand that Shakespear’s themes are pretty universal and that his writing is no more difficult than our own vernaculars. > [@magellan01](#): > > He knows 90% of it. He rejects a lot of it because it is not cool. Where a Chinese kid is trying to adopt the language and have it replace his own in order to take advantage of what the country offers , the African-American kid turns his back on it and the opportunities it wold afford him. We need to bring him into the fold, not legitamize–whatever you prefer to call it. This just allows him to live an even more insular existence. I’m sorry, I’ve spent this summer talking to every last public school student in Richmond and a good chunk of Oakland and I’ve never found a single one to be “rejecting” society because it is cool. None of them have “turned their backs on it and opportunities it would afford him”. Most all the African-American kids I’ve been working with have been polite and well-spoken, a bit bewildered and upset by the current traumas in their neighborhoods, but excited about their futures and full of the same big dreams as any other youngster. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/105 "2005-07-19T16:11:34Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Did you go to high school? One of the most common activities around is asking kids to translate Shakespeare in to modern youth-oriented language. I fondly remember our skater-punk version of McBeth (How fair and fowl a day it is! Thats why I’ve got one pant leg up and one down!) This sort of activities not only forces kids to really dig in to the text, but to understand that Shakespear’s themes are pretty universal and that his writing is no more difficult than our own vernaculars. > . I went to high school but I never did anything like this…not that I think it’s all that bad an idea, you understand. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/106 "2005-07-19T16:34:03Z")
**magellan01:** > [@](#): > > According to my friend wh has been an ESL teacher for over 25 years, no. When students are newly arrived, she teaches them all the subjects in their native tongue, peppering it with a little English as time progresses. Really? Huh. My friend has taught ESL in the South Bronx for five years now and knows the barest smattering of Spanish – she certainly never speaks in it. She had two Indian boys in her class this year, and doesn’t speak their language. I respectfully suggest that your friend, if she does indeed initially teach the students “all the subjects in their native tongue,” is ridiculously unrepresentative of ESL teachers at large. Knowing a second language is not a requirement to teach ESL in any of the programs of which I’m personally aware. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/107 "2005-07-19T16:36:15Z")
**Stephe96.** Watched a lot of AIRPLANE growing up, did we? **dropzone**. I was one of those hard-hitting cigar-chomping newspaper editors – in college, anyways – not that you’d know it from the dozens of spelling errors I make in a given thread. **even sven.** I have met a lot of those kids, and they take pains as well as pride in not sounding white or being perceived as academically gifted in anyway. **Debaser.** Here, here. With such stoic and unflappable defenders such as yourself to protect her, the Queen’s English is quite safe. A toast to the un-fucking-believeable! **Johanna.** _groan_ That’s not Ebonics, that’s some bastardization of Noel Chandler Harris and Zora Neale Hurston with sme gratuitous cussin’ thrown in. **acsenray.** The guy who coined the term ebonics (literally black phonics) is black, and it was the seventies. Be thankful it wasn’t “Afrobonics” or “Blackenese.” ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/108 "2005-07-19T16:43:18Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **Stephe96.** Watched a lot of AIRPLANE growing up, did we? > ." I say, hey, sky! S’other say I won say…I pray to J I get the same ol’ same ol’. Knock yourself a pro, slick! Gray matter back got perfrom’ us down…I take TCBin, man. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/109 "2005-07-19T16:48:08Z")
I’m a little confused now. I’ve the arguments explaining the legitimacy of AAVE and what appears to be some well founded roots across multiple cutures. In that respect I can see many similarities to Yiddish - something close to my cultural background. But I’ve still not heard a compelling argument why it needs to be integrated into the curriculum to succesfully teach SAE in black American communities. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/110 "2005-07-19T16:55:08Z")
**QuickSilver.** Short version, because I’m about to get on the road: there’s some evidence that to interrupt the cycle of African-American generational poverty new methodologies need to be adapted to get students to at least be willing to code-switch, ie. speak a standardized American. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/111 "2005-07-19T17:06:15Z")
I don’t have any problem with dialect-related education at all. I’m a southerner, but my accent is lighter than my parents’ who’s accents are lighter than their parents. In my parents’ lifetime this happened. I want Southern, Creole, Cajun, Appalachian, African-American, New England, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, California, Upper Midwest (and other) accents to flourish, not go down the TV rathole. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/112 "2005-07-19T17:14:51Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **QuickSilver.** Short version, because I’m about to get on the road: there’s some evidence that to interrupt the cycle of African-American generational poverty new methodologies need to be adapted to get students to at least be willing to code-switch, ie. speak a standardized American. And is there evidence that this approach will work or are the educators simply trying to test a theory at this point? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/113 "2005-07-19T17:20:56Z")
If I can ask an honest question then–and I really do mean this, I’m not trying to be snarky–what exactly does this educational approach entail? We’ve established that it doesn’t mean teachers going into classrooms and embarrassing themselves trying to speak “street.” But then what does it mean? What are the actual sorts of things a teacher trained in this approach would do in a classroom? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/114 "2005-07-19T17:21:42Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I don’t know about anyone else, but I sure would’ve understood _Hamlet_ and Dante’s _Inferno_ a LOT more had they been translated into, say, mall-speak or something. You _are_ aware that [literature in the vernacular, such as Italian, was not really taken seriously in Dante’s time](http://cla.calpoly.edu/~dschwart/engl203/vernacular.html), are you not? As I understand it (IANA historian or a linguist), the _Inferno_ was written in the equivalent, for the time, of mall-speak. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/115 "2005-07-19T17:33:35Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on the SDMB. I had no idea that there are people out there willing to actually defend ebonics. Un-fucking-believable. Also bear in mind that confusing “your” and “you’re” is grounds for public humiliation on the SDMB. I’d be surprised if there isn’t significant overlap between the group of persnickety amateur English teachers and the “no objective standard” crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/116 "2005-07-19T17:42:24Z")
> [@](#): > > If I can ask an honest question then–and I really do mean this, I’m not trying to be snarky–what exactly does this educational approach entail? We’ve established that it doesn’t mean teachers going into classrooms and embarrassing themselves trying to speak “street.” But then what does it mean? What are the actual sorts of things a teacher trained in this approach would do in a classroom? Didn’t **FisherQueen** provide her detailed understanding of this in her first post of the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/117 "2005-07-19T17:50:36Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Didn’t **FisherQueen** provide her detailed understanding of this in her first post of the thread? She did, but I’m looking for something a little more specific. All American students should read works by great Black American authors, and should learn Black history, which is part of American history. And many authors used vernacular in their writing. Twain’s books are often little but vernacular. If this approach is nothing more than including Afro-American works into high school English, that’s fine, though I hardly see what the fuss is then. I just have the idea that it’s more than that, though I wasn’t able to make head or tail out of that article. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/118 "2005-07-19T18:41:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I just have the idea that it’s more than that, though I wasn’t able to make head or tail out of that article. But she discussed more than that: > [@](#): > > I would have been happy for some training in Black English (that’s the term that I prefer to "Ebonics, " a word I find needlessly silly), because sometimes I have trouble understanding my students who speak it, and it’s easier for me to lead a class discussion when I understand my students’ ideas. I’ve dealt with it by asking them to find synonyms or define their words, as a result of which I have a larger vocabulary than I used to, and so do they. > > It’s true that Black English has fascinating roots in African languages as well as in southern dialects. I find that, in general, students learn more when I teach them the content without constantly correcting their grammar (though I do correct it when we’re specifically studying grammar or formal writing), and I do speak in Standard English to provide a model. > [@](#): > > As far as I can tell, the school board here is offering to train teachers to understand Black English and its history, and in the cultural differences they might have from their students, which I know I, first beginning to teach in a mostly-black school district, would have appreciated. They’re also offering also to offer black and white students classes in the African-American history, literature, and art. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/119 "2005-07-19T20:33:55Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Wow, it only took one post for somebody to do his best Ebonics impression in a sad, pathetic attempt at a joke. Well, it takes diff’rent strokes to move the world. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062/120 "2005-07-19T21:59:26Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **acsenray.** The guy who coined the term ebonics (literally black phonics) is black, and it was the seventies. Be thankful it wasn’t “Afrobonics” or “Blackenese.” Aphronics! Anyway, I find it amusing that when I hear about people who have a huge bug up their ass about “language purity,” they tend to fall into one of two camps: political conservatives, or the French. Strange bedfellows, _n’cest pas?_ Hopefully, the association alone will be enough to make one group or the other re-examine their preconceptions, because it’s such a tedious, tired, and ill-informed prejudice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-a-bad-idea-becomes-a-horrible-reality/313062.md?page=7)