# "Ebonics"/African American Vernacular English and education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 8, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250 "2018-03-08T17:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/41 "2018-03-09T03:53:44Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Respect does not mean equal. It means you don’t shame a child and make them feel stupid ( **or think they are stupid** ), while you help them learn when it’s critical to use standard English. [my bold] Absolutely. I think a critical first step is that ignorance is fought in attitudes toward language. It’s a widespread belief that AAVE and other dialects are just _bad_ English, akin to overuse of urban slang or just a result of poor education. Respecting AAVE speakers is not some patronizing process of treating the disadvantaged kindly. It’s about acknowledging the reality of the diversity of language, that the notion of a “correct” dialect of English is Not Even Wrong. I don’t think this is any less important than raising awareness of (say) gender diversity. We _also_ want to find the best approaches to education for native AAVE speakers in a world where Standard English is, well, the _standard_ dialect for business and academia. But we should not shrug off the task of raising awareness, of fighting ignorant supremacist attitudes to language, on the grounds that we’re just too busy finding pragmatic solutions. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/42 "2018-03-09T06:18:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Certainly not simple, but acknowledging widely that this is a real dialect could be a start. And I’m not an education professional, but ISTM that jumping on little “mistakes” (and they’re not really mistakes – just normal speech from a different dialect) from kids who are really trying to participate and learn is counterproductive and should stop. If I understand the researcher’s intentions correctly, she’s advocating that schools should teach, in detail, the differences between these dialects, which means actually teaching that AAVE is a real dialect, and teaching the rules and details of that dialect to differentiate it from the standard dialect. Such that all kids learn to speak fluently in both dialects (as many folks already learn “naturally”, but many do not). So have an English class, or two, that teaches the rules of both dialects, such that children recognize their existence and can converse in both. Even teaching non-AAVE kids about how AAVE exists, and how it “works”, could be beneficial to understanding all the different cultural variations in American society. > > As to whether or not it’s “helpful”, that’s beside the point, I think – kids are going to learn language first from their parents, and if their parents primarily (or only) speak AAVE, then that’s the language they’ll learn in the home. What about the other 20+ dialects in the U.S.? How about Cajun? Should all students be taught that as well? How about Hawaian Pidgin? Chicano English? Slee ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/43 "2018-03-09T11:37:28Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > What about the other 20+ dialects in the U.S.? How about Cajun? Should all students be taught that as well? How about Hawaian Pidgin? Chicano English? > > Slee Depending on the region, I certainly don’t see a problem with it. Especially if this same problem exists for kids who grow up with these dialects, though I don’t know if it does. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/44 "2018-03-09T12:01:51Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > What about the other 20+ dialects in the U.S.? How about Cajun? Should all students be taught that as well? How about Hawaian Pidgin? Chicano English? The article is about educational approaches for children whose native dialect is AAVE. Who has proposed that all students be taught any non-native dialect (other than Standard English)? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/45 "2018-03-09T14:48:27Z")
There is a stigma attached to all dialects besides the one used by the elite classes. It is very tough to break into those classes while speaking any kind of discernible dialect. In America, dialects are for the lower and middle classes. Public school curricula are generally the product of the elite classes who wish to homogenize and standardize the diverse cultures of the country. The elite of course believe that everyone should be like them and speak like them. That is why they seek to control many aspects of our lives, especially the lower classes. I have trouble seeing how these classes will aid the education elite in homogenizing society, so I don’t think they will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/46 "2018-03-09T15:12:09Z")
I think you phrased that incorrectly. The prestige dialect used by the elite classes is a dialect, and its speakers do use a discernible dialect. The whole notion that there can be an undialected form of a language, and then various dialects which differ from that undialected form, is wrong from the start. It is no more valid to say that a speaker of AAVE is speaking a poor form of prestige English, than it is to say that a speaker of prestige English is speaking a poor form of AAVE. Which is not to say that schools shouldn’t teach the prestige dialect. They should. But they should recognize that it is a dialect, appropriate for some contexts but not others. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/47 "2018-03-09T15:17:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The article includes examples of how this can impact the learning of AAVE-only students in any subject. In short, if the student is afraid to speak up, even with the correct answers, for math or science or history or whatever, because the teacher is constantly correcting them for the way they speak (which is entirely proper for their dialect), then they’re not going to learn as effectively. I believe this has been an issue with Cockney and some of the other deep dialects of the British Isles - perhaps one of our Brits will chime in - because its almost impossible to talk about AAVE without talking about race (which is one component of it, of course), but it would be interesting to know what issues (and solutions) are there when there isn’t race as the elephant in the room. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/48 "2018-03-09T15:25:30Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I believe this has been an issue with Cockney and some of the other deep dialects of the British Isles - perhaps one of our Brits will chime in - because its almost impossible to talk about AAVE without talking about race (which is one component of it, of course), but it would be interesting to know what issues (and solutions) are there when there isn’t race as the elephant in the room. I think race in the USA is equivalent to class in the UK, for these purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/49 "2018-03-09T16:12:09Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I think race in the USA is equivalent to class in the UK, for these purposes. That is sort of what I’m getting at, but race is loaded here in a very different way than class is in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/50 "2018-03-09T16:14:21Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I think race in the USA is equivalent to class in the UK, for these purposes. Perhaps, but the United States also has distinct class based “dialects” within its white population. Appalachian English has many of the same hallmarks of a “dialect” as AAVE. It has a regional, but also class, connotation… not unlike my sense of the British dialects. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/51 "2018-03-09T16:31:48Z")
There were certainly official [attempts](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/23/the-long-struggle-for-the-right-to-speak-the-welsh-and-irish-languages) to suppress the use of Irish and Welsh in the classroom, which is a bit different to berating students for not speaking correctly (and arguably worse, in the direction of ethnic cleansing). I’m sure the children figured out from the start which side of the class struggle they were on. It is possible to teach language classes without bringing baggage into it (not always easily- look at Belgium). We could also consider a Latin or Esperanto medium as more (but not entirely) culturally neutral. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/52 "2018-03-09T18:32:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The article is about educational approaches for children whose native dialect is AAVE. > > Who has proposed that all students be taught any non-native dialect (other than Standard English)? > [@iiandiii](#): > > she’s advocating that schools should teach, in detail, the differences between these dialects, which means actually teaching that AAVE is a real dialect, and teaching the rules and details of that dialect to differentiate it from the standard dialect. \*Such that \*\*all \*_kids learn to speak fluently in both dialects_ (as many folks already learn “naturally”, but many do not). It is possible that is meant as teach all AAVE speakers both dialects, but that isn’t how I read it. Assuming I am reading it correctly (I’ve got a two year old with diabetes which means not a lot of sleep for Slee and I am not particularly clear headed today, and wasn’t yesterday for that matter) teaching every child AAVE because a small population does speak AAVE, seems like it would disadvantage Chicano English speakers, right? So therefore if we teach kids AAVE we ought to teach kids Chicano English as well. And Cajun. This assumes, of course, that teaching kids a new dialect is the correct solution to help kids who do not speak widely used dialects. There seems to be two distinct issues. One is getting kids who grow up in households that use AAVE to perform better. The second is handling the hostility that teachers have to AAVE. As far as teaching all kids AAVE goes you run into the Cajun/Pidgin/Chicano/20 other dialects issue. And, as Shodan pointed out, there is the issue of which regional version of AAVE the kids speak. As a side note, any time a solution is proposed which requires the vast majority of people to make a major change to solve a problem for a small percentage of the population, it is going to be a very hard sell. African Americans are ~ 12 % of the population. According to the article, 1/3rd of African American kids who grow up in AAVE speaking households have the code switching problem. So we are talking about 4% of kids, assuming the 12% runs across all age groups. Actually, less because not all African American households speak AAVE. I tried finding numbers on what percentage of African American households speak AAVE but wasn’t able to find any info. If we call it 50% (which I suspect is too high but I really don’t know), that means we are going to teach 98% of the population a dialect to solve a problem for the 2% who cannot code switch. Of course, if I am misreading, then all of the above is trivial. The second problem, the hostility teachers have towards AAVE speakers, seems like a much better issue to attack along with methods to help the kids who have problems code switching. > [@iiandiii](#): > > They are speaking correct English, for their dialect. That may be. However, if their dialect isn’t understood by a large percentage of the population they are going to have problems as you acknowledged. Those who speak standard American English are unlikely to view English that they cannot understand or have a very hard time understanding as anything other than incorrect. That isn’t going to change anytime soon. Slee ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/53 "2018-03-09T18:40:33Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > It is possible that is meant as teach all AAVE speakers both dialects, but that isn’t how I read it. > > Assuming I am reading it correctly (I’ve got a two year old with diabetes which means not a lot of sleep for Slee and I am not particularly clear headed today, and wasn’t yesterday for that matter) teaching every child AAVE because a small population does speak AAVE, seems like it would disadvantage Chicano English speakers, right? So therefore if we teach kids AAVE we ought to teach kids Chicano English as well. And Cajun. This assumes, of course, that teaching kids a new dialect is the correct solution to help kids who do not speak widely used dialects. > > There seems to be two distinct issues. One is getting kids who grow up in households that use AAVE to perform better. The second is handling the hostility that teachers have to AAVE. > > As far as teaching all kids AAVE goes you run into the Cajun/Pidgin/Chicano/20 other dialects issue. And, as Shodan pointed out, there is the issue of which regional version of AAVE the kids speak. As a side note, any time a solution is proposed which requires the vast majority of people to make a major change to solve a problem for a small percentage of the population, it is going to be a very hard sell. African Americans are ~ 12 % of the population. According to the article, 1/3rd of African American kids who grow up in AAVE speaking households have the code switching problem. So we are talking about 4% of kids, assuming the 12% runs across all age groups. Actually, less because not all African American households speak AAVE. I tried finding numbers on what percentage of African American households speak AAVE but wasn’t able to find any info. If we call it 50% (which I suspect is too high but I really don’t know), that means we are going to teach 98% of the population a dialect to solve a problem for the 2% who cannot code switch. > > Of course, if I am misreading, then all of the above is trivial. > > The second problem, the hostility teachers have towards AAVE speakers, seems like a much better issue to attack along with methods to help the kids who have problems code switching. > > That may be. However, if their dialect isn’t understood by a large percentage of the population they are going to have problems as you acknowledged. Those who speak standard American English are unlikely to view English that they cannot understand or have a very hard time understanding as anything other than incorrect. That isn’t going to change anytime soon. > > Slee I don’t think she’s advocating teaching every kid AAVE. There are dozens (hundreds?) of dialects in the US. But in areas in which a significant number of the kids in class are AAVE native speakers, then I believe she’s saying that AAVE should be taught as a real dialect, as should SAE (standard American English), and the differences between them, to maximize the chance that every non-SAE-at-home speaker is fluent in SAE. In Appalachian country, perhaps the same should be done with Appalachian dialects, if there is evidence that significant numbers of Appalachian kids don’t become fluent in SAE. Same goes for Los Angeles and Chicano English. There are probably places in which more than one dialect is common, and this could cause some challenges, or maybe even opportunities – learning different dialects could be particularly useful in those areas. But shouldn’t we try to address this rather than ignore it? Especially if significant percentages of black kids (and maybe others) are left behind simply because they don’t become fluent in SAE? As for the last part – that many SAE native speakers are unlikely to see AAVE as anything but bad English – this is how this could change. It should change – that’s a legacy of white supremacism, and it’s continuing to harm kids in the present. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/54 "2018-03-09T18:57:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But in areas in which a significant number of the kids in class are AAVE native speakers, then I believe she’s saying that AAVE should be taught as a real dialect AAVE should be taught as a real dialect to whom? All students? Students that already speak AAVE? Some other group? > [@](#): > > As for the last part – that many SAE native speakers are unlikely to see AAVE as anything but bad English – this is how this could change. It should change – that’s a legacy of white supremacism, and it’s continuing to harm kids in the present. This may be true, but there are a lot of white dialects that other white people consider bad English as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/55 "2018-03-09T18:59:40Z")
Even if you’re not teaching the entire dialect, it doesn’t take very long to show enough examples of distinctive and consistent AAVE grammar to show that it is, definitely, a dialect. As an example, I once saw a speaker explain how the sentence “He be gone.” can have three subtly different meanings, depending on which word was stressed, a feature which is absent in prestige English. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/56 "2018-03-09T19:01:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > AAVE should be taught as a real dialect to whom? All students? Students that already speak AAVE? Some other group? Perhaps some or all in areas in which AAVE is a common native/home dialect. We don’t have to work out every single detail in this thread. If you agree that this is a reasonable thing to consider, and worth further study, then we’re on the same page. > [@](#): > > This may be true, but there are a lot of white dialects that other white people consider bad English as well. And if significant numbers of those kids are being held back due to this, then these ought to be looked at as well. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/57 "2018-03-09T19:13:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Perhaps some or all in areas in which AAVE is a common native/home dialect. We don’t have to work out every single detail in this thread. If you agree that this is a reasonable thing to consider, and worth further study, then we’re on the same page If it involves teaching my kids other dialects than the standard English dialect, then no, I don’t think it is a reasonable thing to consider. If it involves teaching kids that speak AAVE similarly to the way we teach ESL, then yeah, I’d be on board with that. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/58 "2018-03-09T19:16:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even if you’re not teaching the entire dialect, it doesn’t take very long to show enough examples of distinctive and consistent AAVE grammar to show that it is, definitely, a dialect. As an example, I once saw a speaker explain how the sentence “He be gone.” can have three subtly different meanings, depending on which word was stressed, a feature which is absent in prestige English. Really? Substitute this written in so-called prestige English. He is gone. You can’t stress different words in a sentence like that? Surely, you jest. Now with regards to ebonics. I don’t think kids should be teased or ridiculed because of how they speak. But learning a more universal grammar, pronunciation, and spelling is very important. As is learning to dress and have mannerisms that reflect at the least middle class norms. If you don’t agree, that’s fine. But telling people it’s completely acceptable to speak in a lower class vernacular and dress in a lower class fashion is not doing them any favors. I grew up very poor. If I spoke and dressed as to reflect the environment I grew up in, I would never have had a job beyond fast food. Signal theory. It’s important. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/59 "2018-03-09T19:20:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Really? Substitute this written in so-called prestige English. > > He is gone. > > You can’t stress different words in a sentence like that? Surely, you jest. > > Now with regards to ebonics. I don’t think kids should be teased or ridiculed because of how they speak. But learning a more universal grammar, pronunciation, and spelling is very important. As is learning to dress and have mannerisms that reflect at the least middle class norms. > > If you don’t agree, that’s fine. But telling people it’s completely acceptable to speak in a lower class vernacular and dress in a lower class fashion is not doing them any favors. I grew up very poor. If I spoke and dressed as to reflect the environment I grew up in, I would never have had a job beyond fast food. > > Signal theory. It’s important. I don’t think you’re getting the point of the article and this thread. We’re talking about making sure kids from AAVE backgrounds are able to fully understand and learn and use standard American English. The article is saying that current methods, which generally ignore our even deny the dialect status of AAVE, are failing these kids. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/60 "2018-03-09T19:23:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If it involves teaching my kids other dialects than the standard English dialect, then no, I don’t think it is a reasonable thing to consider. If it involves teaching kids that speak AAVE similarly to the way we teach ESL, then yeah, I’d be on board with that. Why would learning the differences between an English dialect that’s very common where your kids live (assuming y’all live in a place in which AAVE is very common) and SAE be a bad thing? In addition to helping make sure AAVE native speaking kids have the best chance to be fluent in SAE, your kids would also be learning a great deal about their cultural and physical neighbors. That helps everyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250.md?page=4)