# "Ebonics"/African American Vernacular English and education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 8, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250 "2018-03-08T17:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/121 "2018-03-11T05:16:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The article is written by somebody with a PhD in speech pathology; she is herself a native speaker of AAE with direct personal experience of growing up among AAE speakers; and extensive practical experience dealing with parents and students and researching and developing a teaching curriculum. No. One “researcher” is not determinative. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/122 "2018-03-11T05:34:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No. One “researcher” is not determinative. Agreed. But saying that it not a counterargument, is it? Again, if you have something worthwhile to say other than “this doesn’t fit my prejudices”, state which of her points you disagree with, and your evidence and counterarguments. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/123 "2018-03-11T05:36:55Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Agreed. But saying that it not a counterargument, is it? Again, if you have something worthwhile to say other than “this doesn’t fit my prejudices”, state which of her points you disagree with, and your evidence and counterarguments. You don’t get to determine what is “worthwhile” in a thread. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/124 "2018-03-11T05:41:07Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You don’t get to determine what is “worthwhile” in a thread. So your counterargument is at about the intellectual level of “I know you are, but what am I”? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/125 "2018-03-11T06:59:05Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > That’s true of some people, of course. But language is one of the few areas in modern society where _decent_ people hold ideas that are essentially supremacist, although of course most of them don’t see it that way. In part that’s because so few people learn any linguistics, and even well educated people generally have profound misconceptions about the nature of language. I linked to a Language Log article earlier, _The Social Psychology of Linguistic Naming and Shaming_. In discussing trivial matters that are essentially stylistic preferences among variants, or perhaps a question of formal or informal register, people will express their misplaced absolutist conviction with astonishing bile, insisting (say) that it’s an _ignorant error_ to use “who” rather than “whom”. One of the surest ways to get a thousand comments on a thread is to ask people to tell us their pet language peeves, to tell us how other people are doing it wrong. By comparison, how many responses would you get to “post your favorite example of beautiful or elegant prose”? > > That’s why I butt heads with prescriptivists on here more often that I like, because I think it’s critically important to grasp when (and _how_, if you’re a teacher) it’s appropriate to call something an “error” in language. It’s the same fundamental misconception writ large that underlies the historical widespread perception of AAVE as an “inferior” or “ignorant” version of “proper” English. > > (No doubt this comment will prompt octopus to come back for a fifth time with “So you’re saying it’s not important teach kids Standard English in school?”) I don’t think I’ve said that once. No need to falsify quotes. I will say it’s sad but not at all surprising to see more intellectually dishonest attitudes attributing a desire to see better language education at home as blackophobia. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/126 "2018-03-11T12:56:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t think I’ve said that once. No need to falsify quotes. I will say it’s sad but not at all surprising to see more intellectually dishonest attitudes attributing a desire to see better language education at home as blackophobia. The article is about schools and education policies, not “education at home”. Further, your plan to have non-SAE fluent parents teach their kids fluency in SAE sounds about as likely as non-Mandarin fluent parents teaching their kids fluency in Mandarin Chinese. The researcher identified a problem – many kids don’t gain fluency in SAE – and a potential solution. It seems to me that having trained education professionals who are actually fluent in SAE teach kids SAE seems a lot more likely to succeed than having non-SAE fluent parents who are not education professionals, and likely are extremely busy already, try and teach their kids SAE. If you disagree with this, what sentence in this post do you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/127 "2018-03-11T16:51:27Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So your counterargument is at about the intellectual level of “I know you are, but what am I”? The opinion of one researcher is not a very good cite. The opinion of a message board poster is not a cite at all. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/128 "2018-03-11T16:56:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Further, your plan to have non-SAE fluent parents teach their kids fluency in SAE sounds about as likely as non-Mandarin fluent parents teaching their kids fluency in Mandarin Chinese. Today’s school children have parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who were educated in SAE. How can they possibly be non-fluent? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/129 "2018-03-11T17:49:16Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > IMO, the best way for children to learn SAE is for SAE to be used in all educational settings. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/130 "2018-03-11T17:58:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The article is about schools and education policies, not “education at home”. Further, your plan to have non-SAE fluent parents teach their kids fluency in SAE sounds about as likely as non-Mandarin fluent parents teaching their kids fluency in Mandarin Chinese. The researcher identified a problem – many kids don’t gain fluency in SAE – and a potential solution. It seems to me that having trained education professionals who are actually fluent in SAE teach kids SAE seems a lot more likely to succeed than having non-SAE fluent parents who are not education professionals, and likely are extremely busy already, try and teach their kids SAE. If you disagree with this, what sentence in this post do you disagree with? Education is not limited to schools and you shouldn’t try to artificially compartmentalize it like that. Successful cultural traits include strong emphasis on education t home and at school. Now, should we not stigmatize children? Yes. Should we not stigmatize a language/dialect? Yes. Should we take a holistic approach to education while rationally allocating limited resources? Yes. So, I don’t disagree with you iiandyiiii. I’m merely pointing out that even without the schools, parents can start acting now. Does that help all children? No. But what policy does. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/131 "2018-03-11T18:37:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Education is not limited to schools and you shouldn’t try to artificially compartmentalize it like that. Successful cultural traits include strong emphasis on education t home and at school. > > Now, should we not stigmatize children? Yes. > Should we not stigmatize a language/dialect? Yes. > Should we take a holistic approach to education while rationally allocating limited resources? Yes. > > So, I don’t disagree with you iiandyiiii. I’m merely pointing out that even without the schools, parents can start acting now. Does that help all children? No. But what policy does. Advocate for parents to do something if you want, but if I understand the article correctly, it will be doomed to fail for some children whose parents are incapable of teaching fluency in SAE. Your advocacy doesn’t actually conflict with what the article suggests, so I’m having trouble with why you’re so resistant to a potential solution that, according to the article, has actually made some progress when it’s been tried. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/132 "2018-03-11T18:39:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Today’s school children have parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who were educated in SAE. How can they possibly be non-fluent? The article specifically describes how the education system has failed so many people, past and present, who never gained fluency in SAE. And it suggests a solution that has actually worked to some degree in the limited situations in which it’s been implemented. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/133 "2018-03-11T19:10:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Advocate for parents to do something if you want, but if I understand the article correctly, it will be doomed to fail for some children whose parents are incapable of teaching fluency in SAE. Your advocacy doesn’t actually conflict with what the article suggests, so I’m having trouble with why you’re so resistant to a potential solution that, according to the article, has actually made some progress when it’s been tried. I never said I was opposed to it. I basically said, if people value their children’s education they won’t act counterproductively with regards to what the schools are currently doing. Since, it takes a good chunk of time, money, and political will to change the schools and the clock doesn’t stop ticking just because we’d like it to, assist the schools at home. Yes, I know that won’t help everybody. But it would be an improvement. Education is in some ways not fairly allocated. I think of my children and the advantages they have. It’s ridiculous the differences between what we can provide and what lower income socio-economic groups can. Not just materially but with in-home instruction. Kid gets stuck on AP physics or calculus? Not a problem. I have years of engineering education and can easily help. This contributes to a huge difference in educational outcomes. The reason I mention at home help is that the schools won’t be able to overcome these sort of advantages/privileges without parental or cultural support. And education is an arms race of sorts. Different communities invest different amounts in order to have a relative advantage in education so that their children have a large advantage in the economic competition of adult hood. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/134 "2018-03-11T19:33:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I never said I was opposed to it. I basically said, if people value their children’s education they won’t act counterproductively with regards to what the schools are currently doing. Since, it takes a good chunk of time, money, and political will to change the schools and the clock doesn’t stop ticking just because we’d like it to, assist the schools at home. Yes, I know that won’t help everybody. But it would be an improvement. > > Education is in some ways not fairly allocated. I think of my children and the advantages they have. It’s ridiculous the differences between what we can provide and what lower income socio-economic groups can. Not just materially but with in-home instruction. Kid gets stuck on AP physics or calculus? Not a problem. I have years of engineering education and can easily help. This contributes to a huge difference in educational outcomes. The reason I mention at home help is that the schools won’t be able to overcome these sort of advantages/privileges without parental or cultural support. And education is an arms race of sorts. Different communities invest different amounts in order to have a relative advantage in education so that their children have a large advantage in the economic competition of adult hood. This is all fine, and I have no problem with respectfully (meaning no talk of AAVE as “improper English” or similar) advocating parental involvement. But I think society is better off if even kids without parents who have the skills and resources to teach certain things like SAE fluency are given the best chance to succeed at school. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/135 "2018-03-12T03:49:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Cite? Opinions don’t need cites, right? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/136 "2018-03-12T03:55:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The article specifically describes how the education system has failed so many people, past and present, who never gained fluency in SAE. I reread the entire article, and I don’t see anything like that. Can you please quote the relevant portion? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/137 "2018-03-12T05:45:08Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You’re repeatedly quoting one article as if it were Gospel. Do you have any other evidence to support your position? […] > > One “researcher” is not determinative. […] > > The opinion of one researcher is not a very good cite. […] You seem to be ignoring or unaware of the fact that the linked article cites several separate research results spanning several decades and discussions with multiple researchers, not just Dr. Washington’s own “opinion” or even just her own research: > [@](#): > > She is not, of course, the first person to make this argument. Linguists pioneered the case for code-switching in the 1960s, and over the years at least half a dozen programs have sought to teach speakers of AAE how to speak standard English in the classroom. […] > > Why exactly does speaking a nonstandard dialect stymie kids as they’re learning to read? In his seminal 1972 book, Language in the Inner City, the linguist William Labov advanced the reigning theory. […] To help kids grasp the dialect of the classroom, Labov wrote, teachers should employ “the methods used in teaching English as a foreign language.” […] > > In an illuminating investigation published in 1973 (but, according to several linguists I spoke with, still reflective of classroom conditions today), Ann McCormick Piestrup portrayed the AAE speaker’s experience as one of incessant interruption. Black children at the California schools Piestrup studied often answered questions correctly, only to be pounced on for irrelevant differences of pronunciation or grammar. […] > > In a recent paper, Washington points to research showing that fluent speakers of two dialects might benefit from some of the cognitive advantages that accrue to speakers of two languages. […] > > At one elementary school she studied in Michigan, teachers implemented a bilingual curriculum for the majority-black student body and saw a 75 percent increase in the number of students who passed state reading tests. > [@D'Anconia](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > The article specifically describes how the education system has failed so many people, past and present, who never gained fluency in SAE. > > I reread the entire article, Then it’s strange that you **still** didn’t happen to notice that what it discusses is not merely “the opinion of one researcher”. > [@D'Anconia](#): > > and I don’t see anything like that. Can you please quote the relevant portion? Again, it seems odd that somebody who actually read the article, and more than once at that, would have failed to notice this. I am not **iiandyiiii** and etc etc., but it seemed pretty apparent to me that this was a reference to one of the sections that I partly quoted above: > [@](#): > > Compounding these challenges is the fact that most AAE speakers have teachers who are hostile to their dialect. In an illuminating investigation published in 1973 (but, according to several linguists I spoke with, still reflective of classroom conditions today), Ann McCormick Piestrup portrayed the AAE speaker’s experience as one of incessant interruption. Black children at the California schools Piestrup studied often answered questions correctly, only to be pounced on for irrelevant differences of pronunciation or grammar. This climate had a drastic effect: As time went on, Piestrup saw students withdraw into “moody silences”; when they did speak, their voices were soft and hesitant. The interrupted students had the lowest reading scores of any children Piestrup observed. > > The social effects of this type of classroom environment have been acknowledged for decades […] That is clearly a description of a stupid methodology _(“must correct students whenever they lapse from speaking **proper** English!”)_ in which rigidly forcing students to adhere to SAE in all circumstances actually **sabotages** their effective learning of SAE. I.e., education system failing people who don’t develop SAE fluency. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/138 "2018-03-12T13:36:07Z")
Maybe I missed it, but did the article discuss at all about how students are identified for special instruction in SAE without also stigmatizing them in some way? Or is that just considered a lesser stigmatization that is unavoidable and better than the alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/139 "2018-03-12T13:43:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That is clearly a description of a stupid methodology _(“must correct students whenever they lapse from speaking **proper** English!”)_ in which rigidly forcing students to adhere to SAE in all circumstances actually **sabotages** their effective learning of SAE. I.e., education system failing people who don’t develop SAE fluency. Do you think that native Spanish speaking kids are allowed to answer questions in the classroom in Spanish? Or do you think they are rigidly forced to adhere to SAE? Does forcing native Spanish speaking kids to adhere to SAE sabotage their effective learning of SAE? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/140 "2018-03-12T13:53:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Do you think that native Spanish speaking kids are allowed to answer questions in the classroom in Spanish? Or do you think they are rigidly forced to adhere to SAE? Does forcing native Spanish speaking kids to adhere to SAE sabotage their effective learning of SAE? Probably not, probably so, and probably not, but I don’t see what this has to do with AAVE-native kids. Those kids speak English, they’re just not fluent in SAE. The language they’re fluent in is “correct”, so if/when a teacher tells them they’re speaking incorrectly, they might have trouble reconciling this with the fact of everything in the rest of their life which tells them that they’re speaking correctly. And they are, in fact, speaking correctly – they’re just not speaking SAE. That just makes them less likely to want to participate in class, since they know they’ll just be berated for speaking the way that everything and everyone in their lives outside of school indicates is the correct way to speak. But if, as the article advocates, they are specifically taught that AAVE is a real English dialect, and that SAE is also a dialect with significant differences, and those differences are explained, drilled, and taught, then they can understand the facts of the society they live in, including the facts of multiple dialects of English being useful and necessary in different contexts, rather than the counterfactual biases of some teachers who might just be ignorant of these facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250.md?page=8)