# "Ebonics"/African American Vernacular English and education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 8, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250 "2018-03-08T17:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/141 "2018-03-12T14:08:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe I missed it, but did the article discuss at all about how students are identified for special instruction in SAE without also stigmatizing them in some way? Or is that just considered a lesser stigmatization that is unavoidable and better than the alternative? By my reading, the article suggested that in areas and schools in which a significant number of kids speak AAVE in the home, the details and differences (and dialect status) of AAVE and SAE should be taught in the general curriculum. ISTM that there’s a lot of resistance to the possibility that some non-AAVE kids might be exposed to AAVE. I don’t think this is a legitimate concern. AAVE is a real and significant part of American society and culture, and in areas in which AAVE is commonly spoken, learning about the significance and status of AAVE could be very helpful to community relationships and good citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/142 "2018-03-12T14:13:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Probably not, probably so, and probably not, but I don’t see what this has to do with AAVE-native kids. Those kids speak English, they’re just not fluent in SAE. The language they’re fluent in is “correct”, so if/when a teacher tells them they’re speaking incorrectly, they might have trouble reconciling this with the fact of everything in the rest of their life which tells them that they’re speaking correctly. And they are, in fact, speaking correctly – they’re just not speaking SAE. That just makes them less likely to want to participate in class, since they know they’ll just be berated for speaking the way that everything and everyone in their lives outside of school indicates is the correct way to speak. I have yet to meet elementary school students who are fluent in SAE, regardless of the dialect they speak at home. I doubt they are fluent in AAVE either. Which dialect should we teach native Spanish speaking kids? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/143 "2018-03-12T14:16:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I have yet to meet elementary school students who are fluent in SAE, regardless of the dialect they speak at home. I doubt they are fluent in AAVE either. Feel free to substitute “proficiently for their age” and I think the point stays the same. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/144 "2018-03-12T14:21:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > ISTM that there’s a lot of resistance to the possibility that some non-AAVE kids might be exposed to AAVE. I don’t think this is a legitimate concern. AAVE is a real and significant part of American society and culture, and in areas in which AAVE is commonly spoken, learning about the significance and status of AAVE could be very helpful to community relationships and good citizenship. Sure. And that can be taught in Social Studies, in the lessons about different American dialects. Not English class. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/145 "2018-03-12T14:22:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Do you think that native Spanish speaking kids are allowed to answer questions in the classroom in Spanish? Or do you think they are rigidly forced to adhere to SAE? Does forcing native Spanish speaking kids to adhere to SAE sabotage their effective learning of SAE? Native Spanish speakers _are_ different, that’s the code-switching issue. Native Spanish-speaking kids automatically code-switch because English and Spanish are so different. So the short answer to your question is “no” - if Spanish speaking kids adhere exclusively to SAE in class it does not usually sabotage their effective learning of SAE. The point is to train native AAVE-speaking kids to cognitively process AAVE vs SAE in the same way as Spanish vs SAE, i.e. as though AAVE and SAE are distinct languages. AAVE is different enough from SAE that attempting to “merge” them creates a cognitive mess, but similar enough that some kids don’t automatically go into the same mental code-switching mode as a Spanish-speaking kid. Characterizing AAVE as an “inferior version” of “proper” English tends to exacerbate this cognitive problem. So, if you want to train young kids’ cognitive processing of AAVE vs SAE, you can’t do that by just trying to suppress AAVE completely. You have to work with them at a young age, to get their brains into “translation” mode, into grasping that teaching SAE is not “correcting” their native speech, but that you can say the same thing one way in AAVE or another _alternative_ way in SAE. The point of being more permissive with AAVE with young kids is not a left wing plot to raise AAVE to the status of SAE as an alternative _lingua franca_ for our colleges and workplaces. It is an approach proposed by scientists and researchers who understand language acquisition and cognitive processing to train these kids’ mental processing of language with the objective of improving their fluency in SAE. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/146 "2018-03-12T14:24:51Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The point is to train native AAVE-speaking kids to cognitively process AAVE vs SAE in the same way as Spanish vs SAE, i.e. as though AAVE and SAE are distinct languages. AAVE is different enough from SAE that attempting to “merge” them creates a cognitive mess, but similar enough that some kids don’t automatically go into the same mental code-switching mode as a Spanish-speaking kid. Characterizing AAVE as an “inferior version” of “proper” English tends to exacerbate this cognitive problem. > > If you want to train young kids’ cognitive processing of AAVE vs SAE, you can’t do that by just trying to suppress AAVE completely. You have to work with them at a young age, to get their brains into “translation” mode, into grasping that you can say the same thing one way in AAVE or another way in SAE I agree. And it seems like an ESL-type class would be perfect for this function. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/147 "2018-03-12T14:43:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > By my reading, the article suggested that in areas and schools in which a significant number of kids speak AAVE in the home, the details and differences (and dialect status) of AAVE and SAE should be taught in the general curriculum. That doesn’t answer the question. How does one actually go about determining this, without assuming “black = AAVE speaker”. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/148 "2018-03-12T15:11:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I have yet to meet elementary school students who are fluent in SAE, regardless of the dialect they speak at home. I doubt they are fluent in AAVE either. On the contrary. By the linguistic definition of fluency, a five year old with normal cognitive development very much speaks his or her native language fluently. If that’s SAD, then they’re fluent in SAE. Their vocabulary and range of concepts may be limited, but that’s a distinct issue from fluency. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/149 "2018-03-12T15:15:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That doesn’t answer the question. How does one actually go about determining this, without assuming “black = AAVE speaker”. Your original question involved stigma with respect to the student, right? There are ways to gauge the propensity of SAVE usage in the broader community without involving students or the classroom. Surveys, for example. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/150 "2018-03-12T15:22:47Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Your original question involved stigma with respect to the student, right? There are ways to gauge the propensity of SAVE usage in the broader community without involving students or the classroom. Surveys, for example. I doubt if even 10% of Americans even know what AAVE is. And even people who speak in “dialect” often don’t know that they do. Do we have any data on how accurate such surveys are? ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/151 "2018-03-12T15:34:51Z")
I don’t know, but presumably any such survey would not be a single sheet of paper blank except for the words “Do you speak AAVE, Y / N?” I’m only pointing out that however it’s done, if your goal is determined the incidence of AAVE use in a community, doing it at school (and stigmatizing children) wouldn’t necessarily be the only or best way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/152 "2018-03-12T15:39:16Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I agree. And it seems like an ESL-type class would be perfect for this function. Not if you want to avoid stigmatizing children. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/153 "2018-03-12T17:34:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I agree. And it seems like an ESL-type class would be perfect for this function. I assume that you mean separating out AAVE-speaking kids into separate ESL-type classes, rather than integrating it as part of everyday learning? Can you cite some research to support that approach as a good way of doing it, or is that just something you _feel_ would be better, because white kids might get AAVE cooties? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/154 "2018-03-13T18:47:34Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > What the article appears to boil down to is the thesis that if you’re in the classroom and ask: > > “So, can anyone define what a prime number is?” > > and get back: > > “Ain’t no numbers you can multiply to get it, Miss” > > then as responses go, > > “Don’t talk ghetto in the classroom, use proper English” is crap teaching; > > “No, it means there ARE no whole numbers which you multiply together to get that result” is not much better; > > “That’s absolutely correct. A prime number is one that can’t be divided into whole numbers.” is great, and > … Actually, pedanticism does have a place in math class, when you’re talking about the math terms. Personally, to me, the best response would be, “You are very close; ain’t no WHOLE numbers you can multiply to get it. A prime number is one that cannot be divided into whole numbers.” I’m a bit of mixed minds on it, and if it were the case that the parents at home were fluent in SAE, then I would expect them to have a part in teaching it to their kids. OTOH, the purpose of having schools is to teach kids things that parents cannot, will not, or are poorly equipped to teach. I drop into vernacular when I’m with my friends. I show up, and say something like, “Yo ya’ll. Whats we got goin’ on?” That is not exactly proper english, and I’d be annoyed if someone tried to correct me. It’s lazy and relaxed, sometimes a bit ambiguous, but it is not supposed to be formal, it’s supposed to be familiar. One thing I have learned about training both dogs and humans is that you have to learn their language, and use that to teach with. It does you no good to give clear unambiguous direction to someone who is not understanding your words. In a teaching environment, you are the teacher, you are the superior, you are (probably) smarter, better educated, and you are the one who is supposed to impart this knowledge. In order to do that, you need to understand who you are teaching. They are kids, they do not understand advanced concepts like code switching, or diallects, or AAVE vs SAE, so they have to be taught those things. In order to teach those things, you have to understand them yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/155 "2018-03-13T19:04:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not if you want to avoid stigmatizing children. > [@Riemann](#): > > I assume that you mean separating out AAVE-speaking kids into separate ESL-type classes, rather than integrating it as part of everyday learning? Can you cite some research to support that approach as a good way of doing it, or is that just something you _feel_ would be better, because white kids might get AAVE cooties? Are current students who are in ESL classes stigmatized? Are current ESL classes NOT a good way of doing it? Can you cite some research that students learning different dialects of English is a good way to spend limited amount of classroom time? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/156 "2018-03-13T19:29:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Can you cite some research that students learning different dialects of English is a good way to spend limited amount of classroom time? The research-driven teaching approach was linked in the first post of this thread. Read the article. In classes with a lot of native AAVE-speakers, other kids might be _exposed_ to AAVE, which hardly seems a bad thing since it presumably reflects local demographics; and part of the essential objective here is that _everyone_ learns that AAVE should be respected as a distinct dialect, not denigrated as “ignorant” or “inferior” English. But nobody has suggest that non-native speakers be _taught_ AAVE, that’s a straw man. The objective is to help the native AAVE-speakers gain fluency in SAE. It looks like I wasn’t far off in suggesting that maybe your real concern was white kids getting AAVE cooties, right? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/157 "2018-03-13T19:35:47Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The research-driven teaching approach was linked in the first post of this thread. Read the article. In classes with a lot of native AAVE-speakers, other kids might be _exposed_ to AAVE, which hardly seems a bad thing since it presumably reflects local demographics; and part of the essential objective here is that _everyone_ learns that AAVE should be respected as a distinct dialect, not denigrated as “ignorant” or “inferior” English. But nobody has suggest that non-native speakers be _taught_ AAVE, that’s a straw man. The objective is to help the native AAVE-speakers gain fluency in SAE. > > It looks like I wasn’t far off in suggesting that maybe your real concern was white kids getting AAVE cooties, right? My concern is my kids being taught non-standard English in their English class. I don’t care what dialect you are talking about. Non AAVE speakers may hear AAVE speaking kids _gasp_ speaking AAVE. So what? Making fun of kids who don’t speak standard English isn’t cool no matter if they are speaking in a dialect, or an accent, or a different language, or whatever. Of course it has been suggested. Here’s one - “the article suggested that in areas and schools in which a significant number of kids speak AAVE in the home, the details and differences (and dialect status) of AAVE and SAE should be taught in the general curriculum” I don’t know what YOU consider “the general curriculum” but it doesn’t suggest to me special classes for those who need help in switching from AAVE to standard English. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/158 "2018-03-13T19:48:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > My concern is my kids being taught non-standard English in their English class. I don’t care what dialect you are talking about. Non AAVE speakers may hear AAVE speaking kids _gasp_ speaking AAVE. So what? Making fun of kids who don’t speak standard English isn’t cool no matter if they are speaking in a dialect, or an accent, or a different language, or whatever. > > Of course it has been suggested. Here’s one - “the article suggested that in areas and schools in which a significant number of kids speak AAVE in the home, the details and differences (and dialect status) of AAVE and SAE should be taught in the general curriculum” > > I don’t know what YOU consider “the general curriculum” but it doesn’t suggest to me special classes for those who need help in switching from AAVE to standard English. But they won’t be “taught non-standard English” – they’ll be taught the facts about SAE and AAVE (assuming they’re in a high-AAVE area). That doesn’t mean they have to learn every grammar and syntax rule for AAVE (like they presumably will for SAE) – it means they learn that it’s a real dialect, that there’s nothing wrong with speaking it, and that SAE is very useful to learn for various contexts like job interviews etc. If the researchers are correct that this will significantly help non-SAE-fluent kids learn SAE, how on Earth could that possibly be a bad thing? If your kids live in a community in which AAVE is common, learning the facts about AAVE will be very beneficial to them in terms of being good citizens and good neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/159 "2018-03-13T19:52:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But they won’t be “taught non-standard English” – they’ll be taught the facts about SAE and AAVE (assuming they’re in a high-AAVE area). That doesn’t mean they learn every grammar and syntax rule for AAVE – it means they learn that it’s a real dialect, that there’s nothing wrong with speaking it, and that SAE is very useful to learn for various contexts like job interviews etc. If the researchers are correct that this will significantly help non-SAE-fluent kids learn SAE, how on Earth could that possibly be a bad thing? If your kids live in a community in which AAVE is common, learning the facts about AAVE will be very beneficial to them in terms of being good citizens and good neighbors. And if my kids lived in a community in which Korean is common, should they similarly learn the facts about the Korean language in order to be good citizens and good neighbors? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250/160 "2018-03-13T19:53:12Z")
The job of educators is to educate and help young people work towards being productive and successful adults in society as a whole. Learning correct English in order to express ideas in a clear and concise manner is a very important part of that, not the other way around. If I’m checking with someone to see how an important project is progressing, I want a better answer than, “It be bangin’”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-african-american-vernacular-english-and-education/810250.md?page=9)