# Ebonics (or let me axe you a question) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 5, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401 "2002-11-05T17:34:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/1 "2002-11-05T17:34:01Z")
Why is it that many blacks (or African Americans for you PC folks), consistently mispronounce words? The pattern I’ve noticed: ask = axe both = boff (trailing ‘th’ replaced with ‘f’) that = dat (leading ‘th’ replaced with ‘d’) This seems to happen continuously, and education doesn’t seem to matter. Chief Moose’s press conferences were littered with these verbal errors. Coach Tyrone Willingham of Notre Dame was giving an interview and sounded perfectly articulate… and then launched a trailing ‘th’. My question is, why? Is this part of the ebonics dictionary, a regional thing, or is it just something that is picked up around homes/neighborhoods? And if it is a regional thing, why is it that I’ve not noticed these peculiar speech trends in any other segment of the population? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/2 "2002-11-05T17:40:54Z")
Many of the black guys and gals I’ve known over the years could speak both standard English (which many of us regard as “proper”) and their own version of it – it usually did come down to education. But then I could say the same about a lot of the southern guys and gals, too. Of course, there’s always an accent of sorts left behind. The only group of people I’ve ever met personally, though, that couldn’t “switch” lingos were people from the eastern part of the country, i.e., Massachussets. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/3 "2002-11-05T17:45:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max \* > \*\*Why is it that many blacks (or African Americans for you PC folks), consistently mispronounce words? > . . . And if it is a regional thing, why is it that I’ve not noticed these peculiar speech trends in any other segment of the population? \*\* Because you haven’t been listening closely enough? ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/4 "2002-11-05T17:50:12Z")
It seems to me to be far from universal among Black/African-American people throughout the US. I would venture a guess to say that it’s more frequent among younger and more urban segments, where the pressure to speak more to the standard is less. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/5 "2002-11-05T18:00:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Because you haven’t been listening closely enough? Perhaps. Although I would think that my circle is diverse enough to ask the question. I’ve never asked any of my black friends because, quite frankly, I didn’t want to insult anyone. If it is a regional thing, fine. But I can honestly say I’ve never heard a white person say ‘axe’. ---
**Author:** ![StephenG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@StephenG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephenG)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/6 "2002-11-05T18:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Balthisar \* > \*\* The only group of people I’ve ever met personally, though, that couldn’t “switch” lingos were people from the eastern part of the country, i.e., Massachussets. \*\* While I know some folks who seem to have great difficulty pronouncing their "r"s, most folks have no problems with them. I regularly switch in and out of my accent, such that my firends never know what to expect, and that’s even before I moved out of the area. My father switches accents frequently (though not deliberately, I suspect), depending on whether he’s in a professional setting or a social one. That’s for accent … if you meant word choice, I frequently say “pop” rather than “soda”, and hardly ever say “wicked”… ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/7 "2002-11-05T18:16:12Z")
**Balthisar** is right. Lots of Southerners do it, too, altering their accent and word choices as the situation requires. Heck, I do it, depending on whether I’m hanging out with friends or in a job interview. I think it’s probably a regional/neighborhood thing. If you grow up listening to your family and friends talk that way, of course that’s how you’re going to talk. And while you might speak a more standard version of English in a professional setting, it makes sense that when you’re in a comfy social setting, you’ll laps back into what you know best. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/8 "2002-11-05T18:39:16Z")
> [@](#): > > If it is a regional thing, fine. But I can honestly say I’ve never heard a white person say ‘axe’. I can’t answer why you have not heard it before, but I do know that both “aks” and “dat” appear in several American and British dialects. While “aks” is more frequently associated with blacks in the U.S. and “dat” (or “dem,” “dese,” and “dose”) are more frequently associated with Eastern European immigrants and some sections of New York City, they each appear in various dialects on the isle of Britain. In general, I would guess that it is a result of the frequency or lack of certain phonemes in various dialects. If the “th” that we associate with either “this” or “thin” is generally lacking in a dialect, then those words will be pronounced “dis” or “tin.” Similarly, a dialect in which “ask” is the only word that uses the _final_ /sk/ phoneme, the speakers are liable to change it to the more comfortable (to them) final /ks/. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/9 "2002-11-05T18:46:20Z")
Max, may I suggest you watch _The Sopranos_ some evening? ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/10 "2002-11-05T21:07:15Z")
In Buffalo, there’s _kielbonics_, the dialect spoken by many Polish-Americans. The “th” sound is replaced by “d,” so you’ll hear white folks say “dat.” There’s also the filler word “dere,” the kilebonics version of “there,” often used before or after nouns, business names or place names. A Cheektowaga resident may say … “I got to go to dat dere Wal-Mart’s dere on dat dere Unionroat and get some of dat dere mulch dere for da frontlawn dere.” which means … “I have to go to the Wal-Mart on Union Road to get some mulch for the front lawn.” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/11 "2002-11-05T21:24:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max \* > \*\*I can honestly say I’ve never heard a white person say ‘axe’. \*\* You don’t get much whiter than Billy Joel, and on the _Glass Houses_ album, he goes back and forth between “ask” and “axe” in the song “Don’t Ask Me Why.” There’s nothing else in the song (or on the album) to indicate this is a consciously “black” stylization. He does, however, use the very-east-coast expression “a buck three-eighty” in a different song on the same album. ---
**Author:** ![shamrock227](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@shamrock227](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamrock227)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/12 "2002-11-05T21:26:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max \* > \*\*If it is a regional thing, fine. But I can honestly say I’ve never heard a white person say ‘axe’. \*\* Come on to New York City… They ‘axe’ enough around here to deforest the entire state 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/13 "2002-11-05T21:26:49Z")
Oh, and F for TH – e.g., “bofe” for “both” – shows up in the Cockney dialect, too. It’s just a regionalism. Don’t get your knickers in a twist. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/14 "2002-11-05T21:43:20Z")
Here in da city of brotherly love, dey published a book _Phillyphonics-Now Youse Can Talk Like Us_. Examples- Philadelphia= Fluffya Italian= Eyetalian Eagles= Iggles Water= Wooder For more examples, watch the first Rocky film. Plenty of obviously inteligent and respected Philadelphians speak in Philly dialect. **Yinglish** This is a dialect used by many Jews of European descent. Fyvish Finkel speaks in Yinglish offfscreen as well as on. Yoda’s syntax is based largely on Yinglish. Zev, Izzy, and many of the other Jewish Dopers probably speak Yinglish as well. English is a dynamic and fluid language. Why all these dialects? I should know such things? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/15 "2002-11-05T21:54:15Z")
_Dis_ and _dat_ are classic Dublinese, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/16 "2002-11-05T22:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milton De La Warre \* > \*\*I would venture a guess to say that it’s more frequent among younger and more urban segments, where the pressure to speak more to the standard is less. \*\* I would guess that the pressure they have is to speak like their peers, to their standard. ---
**Author:** ![moocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4da419/32.png) [@moocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moocher)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/17 "2002-11-06T01:13:56Z")
For the SDMB’s consideration regarging ‘Eubonics’ My brother worked at a DC goverment agency that had a lot of black administrive filled positions. He made the comment that the black secrataries would speak “proper English”, when dealing with business related companies". But as soon as the same secretraries would get a personel calls, they would 'lapse into eubonics". There is something more than speaking “correct” English than is going on here. What is it? ---
**Author:** ![raisinbread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8491ac/32.png) [@raisinbread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raisinbread)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/18 "2002-11-06T01:42:08Z")
Is the ability to understand ebonics purely a black thing? I’ve experienced the phenomena of black folk speaking with perfect diction but once they’re around their black friends (and in my earshot) I can’t make heads or tails of what they’re saying. Most times when I am dealing with black people I feel like someone’s going to brand me as racist because I can’t follow half of what the people say and I am sincerely giving them my undivided attention. This may be off topic but I figure most blacks are speaking with a variation on southern English which is supposed to sound quite a lot like the English spoken in England around the time America was just an unruly colony. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/19 "2002-11-06T01:44:26Z")
First off, the term “Ebonics” is a fiction the Oakland school board thought up; they (erroneously) thought Black English was a creole of English and African languages. It isn’t. It’s just one of many dialects of American English. It’s not even an American English dialect influenced by African languages… all the things Standard English speakers find odd about Black English can be traced back to features of British English dialects. If it were really a creole, you would not be able to understand it at all. This knowledge illustrates an irony that would be hilarious if it wasn’t so racist… many Standard American English speakers equate Black English with stupidity, while the same dialect features used by a British English speaker are equated with intelligence. More later. -fh ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401/20 "2002-11-06T03:09:03Z")
_Ax_ for _ask_ is not (only) a black thing. It originated in England, in fact look in the _Oxford English Dictionary_ word history sometime: _aks_ is a dialectal variant form in England that has been traced back to Anglo-Saxon, some 1300 years ago. Before that, it was probably found in Common Germanic on the European mainland before the Angles and Saxons migrated to Britain. It may go back all the way to Proto-Indo-European. English has a history of switching around the order of _s_ and the stop consonants next to it. This is called “transposition.” For example, English _wasp_ goes back to Proto-Indo-European \*waps-. Italian _vespa_ shows the same transposition; this phenomenon has always been around in Indo-European dialects and has no special association with Black English. AFAIK, Yoda’s SOV (Subject-Object-Verb) syntax is based on Japanese rather than Yiddish. Yiddish, a form of German, most often uses SVO the same as English; it puts the object before the verb only for emphasis: “A _shmendrik_, he says!” This to Yiddish its reputation for colorful and expressive speech helps give. Because it more flexibility with emphasis has. Hungarian and Latin, too, consistently this variability allow, either SOV or SVO using depending on where you the emphasis put. Japanese always the verb last in a sentence puts. So Amharic, Hindi, Hopi, Korean, Lakota, Navajo, Persian, Quechua, Tamil, Turkish, and many, many other languages around the world do. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics-or-let-me-axe-you-a-question/135401.md?page=2)