# Ebonics? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 5, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365 "2013-02-05T04:47:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![orthohedron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ba8739/32.png) [@orthohedron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orthohedron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/1 "2013-02-05T04:47:47Z")
> **[African-American Vernacular English](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAVE)** > > African-American Vernacular English\[a\] (AAVE) is the variety of English natively spoken, particularly in urban communities, by most working- and middle-class African Americans and some Black Canadians. > Having its own unique grammatical, vocabulary, and accent features, AAVE is employed by middle-class Black Americans as the more informal and casual end of a sociolinguistic continuum. However, in formal speaking contexts, speakers tend to switch to more standard English grammar and vocabulary... I’m not sure if I’m beating a dead horse or not, but above I’ve posted a link to an article on Wikipedia about AAVE, African American Vernacular English also known as Ebonics. I am a black person, and I know a lot of other black people, friends, family, coworkers, etc… no black people with whom I’ve ever come into contact speak that way all of the time. Sure there is slang that we may use on occasion but I’ve never met anyone who exclusively speaks their own dialect of English like this article would lead you to believe, as if black people speak Mandarin while everyone else speaks Cantonese in a Cantonese speaking world. I find it interesting that they have decoded the improper english spoken by black people behind closed doors so accurately. However I believe that anyone who speaks English at a high school level can and will not speak AAVE in a formal setting. Imagine hearing a job applicant say, “I been done workin at dat gig for a minute. Ima be good for da team right hurr tho. I gots ambition.” I’m not an over-educated, self hating, black culture hating snob either. I have some college, and I deal with black people from all walks of life all of the time. Everyone, from the most stereotypical urban (read ghetto) type, to the successful professional, to the blue collar working man, all of these people have been able to speak properly when it was appropriate in my experience. I think it’s just ridiculous that they would categorize AAVE as a complete language when all it is, is slang and improper english. What are your thoughts on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/2 "2013-02-05T04:59:45Z")
I have known or spoken with black Americans from all walks of life, and have heard everything from AAVE to The Queen’s English. My experience is that the greater the amount of higher education, the less AAVE they used in their common speech. Even the most “street” of the people I’ve known could clean their language up if they felt like it, to some degree, but the closer they were to the AAVE-as-usual end of the continuum, the more effort it took and the less convincing it was. I don’t believe that this is an actual dialect, like the difference between Mandarin and Cantonese, but simply a differently-enunciated or pronounced version of the language. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/3 "2013-02-05T05:07:11Z")
\Great hullaballoo of 1992!\ ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/4 "2013-02-05T05:13:46Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I don’t believe that this is an actual dialect, like the difference between Mandarin and Cantonese, but simply a differently-enunciated or pronounced version of the language. No, it goes beyond mere pronunciation differences. There are aspects of AAVE grammar that are different or don’t even exist in standard American English. The oft-discussed [“habitual be”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitual_be) is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![orthohedron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ba8739/32.png) [@orthohedron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orthohedron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/5 "2013-02-05T05:21:23Z")
They have AAVE classes. How can you teach someone how to speak improper English? I think the whole thing is BS. Sure if you want to use it as a tool for writers who want to write a story using dialect, but it’s not something that should be taught outside of say an English major in college. @ **Hello Again** I was reading an article on reddit and they linked AAVE on Wikipedia. I’ve known about AAVE since it was a thing but I’ve never actually read the Wikipedia article… Lol 1992! ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/6 "2013-02-05T05:27:46Z")
It’s not improper English - it’s non Standard English 🙂 It has it’s own rules - which seem ridiculous to people that speak standard English. Things like double negatives are totally accepted in some other languages. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/7 "2013-02-05T05:30:27Z")
I’m pretty much in line with orthohedron’s opinion on the matter. I don’t know how accurate my memory is, or if it was even true at the time, but I seem to remember years ago (late 90s maybe?), a movement to get ebonics into the public school system. To treat it like they treat students who only speak a foreign language. Basically classes taught in ebonics. It sounds a bit far fetched to me, but I do distinctly remember hearing about it back then. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/8 "2013-02-05T05:32:18Z")
There are black people and white people who couldn’t speak proper English if they wanted to. Haven’t you ever watched Maury? ---
**Author:** ![orthohedron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ba8739/32.png) [@orthohedron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orthohedron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/9 "2013-02-05T05:41:01Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > It’s not improper English - it’s non Standard English 🙂 > > It has it’s own rules - which seem ridiculous to people that speak standard English. > > Things like double negatives are totally accepted in some other languages. I say improper English because that’s what it is. These aren’t southerners speaking Creole or Patois, this is random everyday black people from all over America, and they are speaking uneducated/lazy English. I speak it too when it’s appropriate, but our schools and such should be teaching the youth not to speak it. It’s a failure of our educational system, that’s what it boils down to. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/10 "2013-02-05T05:49:32Z")
> [@orthohedron](#): > > I say improper English because that’s what it is. These aren’t southerners speaking Creole or Patois, this is random everyday black people from all over America, and they are speaking uneducated/lazy English. I speak it too when it’s appropriate, but our schools and such should be teaching the youth not to speak it. It’s a failure of our educational system, that’s what it boils down to. I don’t know if I’d go as far as to say it’s a failure of the education system. I’ve heard many times that, in some black communities, it’s frowned upon to ‘talk white’, ie grammatically proper English. Of course, like my previous post, I’m not sure how much of that is true and how much is just hearsay. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/11 "2013-02-05T05:50:31Z")
> [@orthohedron](#): > > They have AAVE classes. I find this interesting. What I remember of the AAVE debate back in the early 90s was that this was more to help the teachers understand their students and communicate with them better. I don’t recall AAVE being a substitute for learning standard, formal “prestige dialect” English in the classroom. Am I mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/12 "2013-02-05T05:54:16Z")
I don’t think that is what the “Ebonics” movement (if you can call it that) is attempting to do. It is attempting to get teachers to understand the “features” and grammar of the language so they can better instruct their students in how to speak standard English. I don’t think anyone is teaching kids how to speak AAVE - worst case scenario - there are/ or were classes teaching standard English using Ebonics as the medium in the way ESL would be done. I think there was maybe one school or something that got over zealous - but I don’t think there was any real attempt to teach kids Ebonics. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/13 "2013-02-05T05:55:27Z")
Double post ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/14 "2013-02-05T06:07:09Z")
Actual quote from several job interviews > [@](#): > > Well let me axe you a question. I am not convinced that they can turn the ebonics on and off at will. ---
**Author:** ![orthohedron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ba8739/32.png) [@orthohedron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orthohedron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/15 "2013-02-05T06:08:32Z")
@ **pulykamell** I don’t mean they are teaching students to speak Ebonics, I mean you can take those classes in college for the purpose of communicating with those who speak Ebonics, e.g. someone who plans to teach secondary education. But language is a fluent thing, especially slang. It changes over time and it varies from one geographic location to the next. I can cross the bridge into Philly and the people have entirely different words that they use for different things, but they say the South Jersey accent and Philly accent is pretty much the same. Of course I haven’t been in school since the late 90’s so I have no idea what they offer now. @ **AngelSoft** “Talking white” and speaking properly are different. Look at Bill Cosby when he’s being serious and compare that to Bryant Gumbel. Both of those people speak proper English and I’ve yet to hear Bill Cosby accused of “talking white”. It’s more about vocal tone than it is about grammar. ---
**Author:** ![orthohedron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ba8739/32.png) [@orthohedron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orthohedron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/16 "2013-02-05T06:23:29Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Actual quote from several job interviews > I am not convinced that they can turn the ebonics on and off at will. Double post because I missed the 5 minute edit window… Ask them to write it down next time and I guarantee they will write down ask. Accents aren’t bad grammar. Listen to these NJ mayors talk about the properties damaged by the Hurricane Sandy wooder (water)… are they speaking Ebonics too? No it’s their South Jersey accent coming out on top of their proper grammar. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/17 "2013-02-05T06:31:54Z")
Someone who can switch pretty well (although accent - informal speech - more than grammar): [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Ynt1qLnbhuI/hqdefault.jpg "Black reporter flips out on tv fail") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynt1qLnbhuI) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/18 "2013-02-05T06:33:10Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Actual quote from several job interviews > I am not convinced that they can turn the ebonics on and off at will. I don’t understand why “axe” grates on so many people’s ears. I don’t even notice it. As for AAVE, I do think there is utility in teachers understanding the general ideas of AAVE to help facilitate communication with their students. I mean, I certainly learned a few points on AAVE that I wasn’t aware of back in college, including the “habitual be” that is misused by most people who try to imitate black English and introduces a layer of meaning that I think is helpful to know. That said, of course, I believe the goal of education should be in teaching as close as possible to the prestige dialect. My own dialect is a bit different than standard American English. We use double negatives, “borrow” for “lend,” phrases like “come with,” etc., but we were taught to speak and write “proper” English (much of which we found out much later wasn’t really all that “proper” necessarily, with a lot of stupid grammatical superstitions like not splitting infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions.) Of course, we didn’t need classes for the teachers to learn our dialect because, well, they spoke our dialect, too. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/19 "2013-02-05T12:14:37Z")
It’s not improper English. It IS a dialect. Decades of respectable linguistics research disagree with your assertions. I think the majority of speakers of AAVE code-switch, but some do it better than others. I have met some folks who don’t do a good job of it. They tend to be younger and less exposed to “mainstream” culture. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365/20 "2013-02-05T12:49:46Z")
“You hang up on she?” I maintain there is nothing grammatically odd about that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ebonics/649365.md?page=2)