# Economic consequences of a new, cheap, safe, 'infinitely available', energy source **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335 "2009-08-22T18:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/21 "2009-08-23T00:28:47Z")
Wouldn’t we need a method of propulsion that didn’t require the thrust of a funneled combustion? Well, I guess with infinite power we could probably quickly come up with one. If you can convert energy into mass, with infinite energy you could create infinite mass… black holes. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/22 "2009-08-23T00:42:51Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > Wouldn’t we need a method of propulsion that didn’t require the thrust of a funneled combustion? Well, I guess with infinite power we could probably quickly come up with one. If you can convert energy into mass, with infinite energy you could create infinite mass… black holes. Why work so hard? You could make a really killer ion drive a lot soon, & easier. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/23 "2009-08-23T00:43:39Z")
A couple thoughts: 1. Oil wouldn’t disappear because plastic is made from oil. The price would drop, and there’d be a ton more plastic made, with dire environmental consequences because packaging and disposable everything would become much cheaper. 2. A lot of processes to synthesize rare materials would become economically feasible, causing a drop in a lot of other commodity prices (with a lot of economic disruption from that). 3. Weird, powerful new weapons like railguns and lasers that are currently prohibitively energy-expensive. This would tend to revolutionize warfare over the long term in the same way gunpowder did. 4. Have/have not disparities increased. If cold fusion became a reality tomorrow, you’d see a tremendous increase in wealth in developed economies better able to exploit it, while poor third world countries would get poorer because what little economic advantage they have would disappear with new, cheap-energy replacements. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/24 "2009-08-23T01:23:17Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > I don’t actually think it would have much impact on most of the worlds’ population, including in the US, because I think it would be bought and owned and sold by the same powers currently controlling energy sources/everything they can. Consumers would not see any significant reduction in their fuel costs, but the controlling interests would see huge increases in profit. So if you happened to be a shareholder, you’d probably see your income rise substantially. > > Call me cynical, but I do not for a moment think that such a boon would ever be made freely or even cheaply available to the masses. It probably wouldn’t even be made public. Imagine the power and wealth such a discovery would control. No way. It would be the Holy Grail, and as jealously guarded. Some would try; and they’d fail. It wouldn’t do much good to suppress it in America if, say, the Netherlands or Brazil is implementing it in the open. Most nations in the world aren’t as outright corporation-worshipping as America; at least some would say “too bad for you suckers!” if the energy companies asked them to suppress such an invention.You could never keep something known on a worldwide scale secret anyway. > [@wierdaaron](#): > > Wouldn’t we need a method of propulsion that didn’t require the thrust of a funneled combustion? Methods of propulsion using microwave and laser beams have been proposed. And electromagnetic “mass driver” launchers for satellites. > [@wierdaaron](#): > > I might have been a bit overzealous there, but in the scenario of one generator per household, you would need to adjust your home wiring to get off the grid. Actually, you can stay on the grid and a generator at the same time; if you produce excess energy the grid soaks it up and you get money back in your electricity bill. That could have interesting consequences if _ **everyone** _ is doing that. You might need an outright takeover of the electrical grid by the government, or give up on it entirely; I think it’s likely that it wouldn’t be possible to make enough money off it to pay for it’s own maintenance. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/25 "2009-08-23T01:27:31Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > A couple thoughts: > > 1. Oil wouldn’t disappear because plastic is made from oil. The price would drop, and there’d be a ton more plastic made, with dire environmental consequences because packaging and disposable everything would become much cheaper. It would also become trivially cheap to recycle plastic. The main reason plastic consumes landfill space is that it’s expensive to recycle it, and the reasoni t’s expensive to recycle it is energy. With ridiculously cheap or free energy, you can recycle plastic with ease. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/26 "2009-08-23T01:33:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It would also become trivially cheap to recycle plastic. The main reason plastic consumes landfill space is that it’s expensive to recycle it, and the reasoni t’s expensive to recycle it is energy. > > With ridiculously cheap or free energy, you can recycle plastic with ease. For that matter you can recycle a lot of things easier; instead of fancy, finicky energy efficent methods you can just melt everything down to it’s basic elements and start from scratch. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/27 "2009-08-23T01:38:41Z")
Massive unemployment, like ridiculous levels, think the vast majority of people unemployed. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/28 "2009-08-23T02:08:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > DC has an immense number of disadvantages, no matter what power costs. High voltage DC has some advantages over AC, like decreased capacitive losses. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Captain\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_C)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/29 "2009-08-23T02:10:35Z")
We’d wipe ourselves out within the generation. Excessive unemployment would lead to civil unrest. To quell the unrest governments would have to paint “those damn foreigners!” as the real enemy and mobilize the extra population into the military. With the awesome destructive power that could be unleashed when this infinite amount of energy is directed militarily, I can’t imagine anything except an uninhabitable planet before too many years. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/30 "2009-08-23T02:45:21Z")
Well, time to start working out a societal system where unemployment instead becomes more vacation for everybody. The lack of energy scarcity would go a long way towards making that possible. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/31 "2009-08-23T02:53:58Z")
Would unlimited power increase the chance of seeing much more powerful computers, like quantum computers, any faster? I mean, sure, it would mean you could have a billion megawatt cpu, but removing that “restriction” doesn’t necessarily mean it’d be easier to make, would it? If we could get quantum computers, perhaps molecule assemblers, or “3D printers” could come around. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/32 "2009-08-23T03:06:51Z")
I’m not seeing why free energy would equal unemployment. Seems to me the increase in efficiency is likely to decrease unemployment. I’m sure we’ll get the usual “well, what about the oil workers?” stuff, but geez, we should be past this nonsense now. More resources - and that’s what free energy would be - equal more wealth, not less. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/33 "2009-08-23T03:09:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m not seeing why free energy would equal unemployment. Seems to me the increase in efficiency is likely to decrease unemployment. I was assuming that he meant it suddenly came on the market rather than was a gradual increase in efficiency like some badass solar cell tech that was developed slowly over time. > [@](#): > > I’m sure we’ll get the usual “well, what about the oil workers?” stuff, but geez, we should be past this nonsense now. More resources - and that’s what free energy would be - equal more wealth, not less. It’s not just the oil workers, it’s the gas station attendants the automobile industry, it’s all the people who are dependent upon them, it affects everything. It’s a Black Swan, the systems disruption will be serious. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/34 "2009-08-23T03:12:59Z")
We’re still reeling from the mass unemployment of telegraph workers caused by the invention of the telemaphone. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/35 "2009-08-23T03:18:36Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > We’re still reeling from the mass unemployment of telegraph workers caused by the invention of the telemaphone. Heck, you don’t even have to go that far; network switching put tens of thousands of operator jobs into the dustbin in a matter of a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/36 "2009-08-23T03:20:16Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > In terms of the economy, you might predict that inflation would disappear and probably become negative (i.e. most things would cost less) since manufacturing and transportation costs (among others) would be greatly reduced. On the other hand, suddenly there would be a lot of money floating around. As a result, people would tend to go on a buying spree and businesses would tend to expand - until prices rose and interest rates rose, i.e. until inflationary pressures supervened. As the boom would be fuelled by increased production, it would not be inflationary. At worst, inflationary pressures from increased spending would _slow_ the fall in prices, because it is only the fall in prices that is fuelling the increased demand. > [@wierdaaron](#): > > I don’t know about economic consequences, but I imagine there’d be a pretty big sociological effect leading up to it. Energy companies make money by charging for electricity. If a free or near-free source became available, rather than try to capitalize on it and become leaders in a new field, they’re probably throw a fit and do anything to stop it. Just because the marginal cost _for them_ is zero doesn’t mean they can’t charge for electricity. They could drastically reduce their prices and _still_ make just as much profit as they do today. > [@mswas](#): > > Massive unemployment, like ridiculous levels, think the vast majority of people unemployed. Maybe, but it would be the _good_ type of unemployment - the sort that doesn’t result in any loss of production. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/37 "2009-08-23T03:26:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Heck, you don’t even have to go that far; network switching put tens of thousands of operator jobs into the dustbin in a matter of a few years. Different scale. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/38 "2009-08-23T03:29:30Z")
Seeing as you’d be de-scarcifying the undercurrent to pretty much every technological solution to filling basic human needs, it’d probably be the greatest thing in the world. honestly, you’d probably be about 100x closer to some abundance-based star-trek communism. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/39 "2009-08-23T03:35:17Z")
Come the electric cars, gasoline powered cars aren’t going to just vanish, unless some mutated monster form of Cash For Clunkers is unleashed (Cash for Combustion?). If every major car manufacturer stopped making cars 10 minutes from now, would the gas stations suffer? They get along just fine with the current number of gas-powered cars. Once the electric cars come around, the number of gas cars on the road will dwindle, but it would probably take decades for them to be off the roads completely. As business for gas stations slows, they can go out of business at their own pace, and the number of oil companies can slowly consolidate down to one or two. The actual owners of gas stations (not the oil companies) usually make most of their money from snacks and sodas, so maybe if they can just find some reason to get people to stop by, they can subsist as mini-marts without that dreadful smell of unleaded. Maybe cars will still need to be juiced up, so there’ll need to be recharging stations. But anyway, it wouldn’t be a sudden cataclysmic loss of business for the gas stations and oil companies. It’d be a slow process, and people can adapt to slow processes. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335/40 "2009-08-23T03:35:47Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Seeing as you’d be de-scarcifying the undercurrent to pretty much every technological solution to filling basic human needs, it’d probably be the greatest thing in the world. > > honestly, you’d probably be about 100x closer to some abundance-based star-trek communism. After the bloody civil wars that occurred due to the massive shift in the paradigm of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-consequences-of-a-new-cheap-safe-infinitely-available-energy-source/507335.md?page=3)