Economic conservatives: what changes do you want to make?

I should add that I’m particularly endorcing the idea. Funding infrastructure actually works close to this way, but lagged. Transportation Acts, funding infrastructure programs, are budgeted yearly and re-legislated every few years. If revenues are up, the Act will be given a larger budget. If they’re down . . . I’m not really sure. I suspect if they’re down, construction groups and the ASCE will spend more on lobbying.

As mentioned before, nobody likes funding maintenance. Maintenance is not sexy. So the Transportation Act combines maintenance with safety changes and with new building for traffic management and increased air quality and with other things.

What a remark! But I’ll give it more respect than it’s due.
Scroll almost halfway down in this report to see that government spending (as % of GDP) has fallen sharply since the crisis.

(Oh, the report is from the Bureau of Economic Analysis – I suppose that’s some Communist front. :smack: )

Correct that both countries have good health care systems, but otherwise completely false as to how you characterize them and to what you attribute their efficiencies. In fact it’s not only false, the peddling of private enterprise dogma as the solution to all health care problems that you advocate is precisely what has landed the US in such a uniquely costly and ineffectual system.

France runs a system of universal health care that is actually even more socialized than that of Germany, being based on the same UK Beveridge Report that led to the founding of the NHS. In particular, the government has direct operational management of the health funds, and is able, unlike in the US but like in Germany and everywhere else that is de facto single-payer, to control provider costs. It is also absolutely false to claim that the public system only covers “catastrophic costs” as it covers all medical costs to a minimum level of at least 70%, but can cover 100% in catastrophic circumstances.

I know little of the system in Singapore except that it’s fairly unique and may not be widely applicable to large countries like the other national systems, but even there, it is a universal system for all citizens and is characterized by substantial subsidies, a means-tested payment scheme, and effective governmental control over provider costs – and the vast majority of the population use the public health care system.

So the points in my original post stand. In particular, the central question of why would any rational conservative not want to embrace the enormous cost savings arising from a single-payer or a single-payer-like system with tight government regulation and centralized provider cost control which has proven so effective in other countries all over the world? The only possible reason is the same reason that a horde of ideologues recruited a young Ronald Reagan in the early 60’s to spearhead a campaign of fear against Medicare. The grounds were the usual knee-jerk conservative ideology: that government is invariably evil and private enterprise invariably the salvation of mankind – completely ignoring the absolutely unique nature of health care that all other nations recognize – and that therefore government subsidized health insurance for the elderly would be tantamount to a Communist takeover of the USA. :rolleyes:

It’s not what I’m talking about. It was septimus who raised the issue.

What’s your objection to the 17th Amendment?

But by your definition none of that counts as government spending. I grant you that your definition makes no sense, but in case you wanted to be consistent…

Assuming you do wish to embrace consistency, you will readily admit that, as a percentage of GDP, both the deficit, and government spending overall is significantly higher under Obama than under either of the Bushes, Reagan, or Clinton. (Cite.) Roughly twice as high as Bush 41, Bush 43, or Reagan, in fact.

Regards,
Shodan

You’re right - that was essentially a typo. Of course having a competitor doesn’t build market share. But it does build markets, increasing the market size for any given share. Furthermore, modern large companies understand that external competition forces focus and improves the quality of their own products, which helps build a market as well.

I can give you a concrete example. One of the reforms Jack Welch undertook at GE was to stop the practice of internal sales. GE is such a big company and has so many divisions that essentially it was its own oligarchy. GE Aviation buys controls from GE Intelligent Platforms. GE Appliances buys hardware from GE Lighting, which in turn buys raw material from other GE businesses, etc.

The policy used to be that when a GE business was seeking a vendor, it had to give strong preference to another GE business if at all possible. It seemed to make sense - why would you allow a competitor to profit from a sale to you when a similar product is already available in GE? Why wouldn’t you support your own business?

What Welch realized was that this policy was making the business lazy. Why bother to make the best product you can when your main customer is another GE business and they are forced to buy from you? Why strive to provide the best service you can to another GE business when they can’t go anywhere else anyway? And then of course the GE businesses buying the substandard GE products would then be at a competitive disadvantage over other companies that had a better supply chain.

So Welch eliminated that, and said that when making purchasing decisions within GE, products made by GE should get no special dispensation at all. They would be forced to compete with 3rd parties on an even playing field. This paid off almost immediately, exposing weak products, lazy teams, and poor business models. Being forced to compete in the market is an excellent way to improve the quality of your company.

This is actually a fairly well understood principle. Healthy competition forces everyone to be better and to provide better products, and that in turn builds markets. One of the reasons this is true is because even a monopoly in a certain product isn’t a true monopoly so long as there are alternatives to that product. Canada Nickel once held 95% of the world’s nickel production capacity as I recall, and yet their pricing was not seen to be predatory. The reason is because for most of their customers there were alternatives to nickel if the price was too high or the quality too low.

Maybe you just worked for a bad company. Does it still have dominant market share? What is ‘predatory marketing’?

There’s no question that a corporation can wind up with a large share in a market - the question is whether that dominance or monopoly is due to coercive policies, or whether it has dominance simply because it’s the best. If the latter, who cares? Google has a dominant share of the search engine business, but that’s not because it’s a coercive monopoly - it’s because no one has managed to do it better. But even such monopolies or near-monopolies lose market share rapidly if they lose focus. I remember the arguments for breaking up Microsoft - the argument was that it had monopolistic power because it had locked in a large percentage of computer users into its operating system, and the barrier to entry into the market was therefore too high for competition to take hold.

But look what’s happened since: The rise of smart phones and tablets, and the resurgent Apple are eating Microsoft’s lunch. In the meantime, ipads and open-source software are eating into Microsoft’s lucrative enterprise businesses.

I wouldn’t say that they’re ‘encouraging competition’ rather than recognizing that the fear of competition is necessary to keep a business focused on its strengths.

I work for a large company and am in a lot of strategic meetings, and I have never heard anyone talk about devious ways to stifle competition. Our focus is always, always on what customers want. To the extent that we look at the competition, it’s to note where they are ‘winning’ - and how. Then we try to improve our product to take away their competitive advantage.

That’s been true in every business I’ve ever been associated with, except for one very small business. And in my experience, that’s where most of the shenanigans come from. Most employee abuses happen in small businesses as well. They’re the ones that are under-capitalized or where the cost of doing business comes out of the owner’s pockets, and they’re the most likely to cut corners or shaft their employees. In general, Large corporations have too much invested in their brand and too much capital at risk to dick around like that. When large corporations do something bad, it’s usually traceable back to some lower-level manager or employee cutting corners - not a result of some overarching villainous plan.

Big corporations do engage in shenanigans at a high level as well, but the most common form is to ‘partner’ with governments in a way that locks out competition or increases profits, or to use regulations to their advantage. Part of this is the gross use of patent war chests to freeze out competition, or lobbying for regulations that give them some advantage. If a company has already invested in a large lead-testing facility and their competitors haven’t, it suddenly becomes a great idea to lobby government for new safety standards that mandate lead testing. That sort of thing.

So where’s the evidence that consumers have been greatly harmed by monopolization? How about a list of corporations that have maintained coercive monopolistic positions for any length of time? How much of their price was increased due to that monopoly position? What was the cost to society? Usually these arguments are presented in vague and anecdotal ways.

There’s a good reason why markets don’t trend towards monopolistic control, and it comes from information theory. When corporations get large, they start to suffer from the same problems that governments do - power becomes disconnected from information. The people making the big decisions are far removed from the field, and don’t understand their own markets. They rely on information flowing up the chain, and that’s always problematic. They also suffer from bureaucratic bloat and the breaking of healthy feedback loops by self-interested managers and employees. They devolve into silos of disconnected departments and divisions, and become sclerotic and hard to change. Individual incentives stop aligning with overall corporate goals.

Successful corporations that stand the test of time are constantly re-inventing themselves, abandoning markets in which they fail, seeking new opportunities to grow, restructuring and re-organizing as the world changes, etc. But every time you do that there’s an opportunity to get it wrong and fail. Sometimes companies survive by constantly buying up other businesses to add to their portfolio, but that has its own risks - mainly that the small company you bought became successful because it’s small and has a lot of specialized domain knowledge (often that’s what you’re buying), but once it gets absorbed into the behemoth that advantage begins to erode and eventually vanish. In my own company I’ve seen that many times.

From here. 2014 government spending as a percentage of GDP, 41.6%. I said ‘about’ because I used normal rounding procedures.

Knowing how people here like to have kittens when any ‘right wing’ source is used, I cross-checked the number with the OECD’s data, and found the latest data here: Government expenditures at a glance, 2013. The latest data OECD has is for 2011, which shows U.S. government expenditure at… 41.7% of GDP.
I love how you’re now trying to not only nitpick my ‘rounding errors’, while your own claims (originally that it was below 20% of GDP, then 37.86% of GDP) were completely wrong.

I assume your ‘below 20%’ claim refers to social spending, and you claim that this is lower than it was even in the Reagan years. So again, I went back to the OECD to look up those figures, and indeed ‘social spending’ was 20% of GDP in 2013. Not ‘below 20%’ - if you’re going to nitpick me on decimal places, I’m gonna do the same to you. As to your claim that this is lower than it was in the Reagan years, the same table shows that social spending in the 1980’s varied between 13.2% and 13.6% of GDP - WAY lower than it is today.

So before you go spouting off about my accuracy, motives, and tossing snide comments around regarding my ‘prior history’, I suggest you take a good hard look in the mirror regarding your own tendency to spin the data in a way that favors your argument.

By the way, the reason I’m careful to cross-check this stuff is that I know that any number I put up here will be intensely challenged - and that usually I’ll already be convicted of dishonesty before I have time to come back and cite my sources. And then when I come up with cites, the matter is dropped but next time the original charge and ‘debunking’ is used to claim that I have a ‘history’ of being inaccurate. I’m getting pretty tired of that game.

Septimus: Looking at Shodan’s link, perhaps you were talking about federal outlays - but if you were you were off by even more than you claimed I was off regarding overall government spending as a percentage of GDP. And your claim that it is currently lower than Reagan’s was is still wrong.

It’s fair to say we had a problem of terminology and that there are so many ways to slice and dice government spending that we have to make sure we’re talking about the same thing. But you’re the one who decided to go for the cheap shots and character assassination and make assumptions about my dishonesty (that I googled ‘right wing sites’ then ‘rounded’ 38% up to 42% - a claim for which there was no evidence at all). You’re also the one that made the vague ad hominem attack about my ‘prior history’ in an attempt to poison the discussion.

Jesus. I don’t ‘peddle private enterprise dogma’. I’m on record on this board in saying that a single-payer system would be superior to what the U.S. has now - before or after Obamacare.

Health economists generally agree that one of the major problems with cost containment in health care is the disconnect between producers, consumers, and the people who pick up the check. That’s true for private insurance as well as for government insurance.

The government provides 70% of the coverage, and private citizens are on the hook for 30%. The point I was making is that the 30% that private citizens are responsible for acts as a cost containment mechanism. A key point for me is that some cost of health care should come out of your own pocket, so you have an incentive to control spending and providers have an incentive to control prices.

For example, Canada is considered ‘single payer’, but citizens here are still responsible for their own prescription drugs, dental coverage, and some routine health care costs. We also have some private services (varies by province) that can compete with the public system. And we have many private supplemental insurance for people who don’t want to risk high dental and prescription drug costs.

Singapore uses a version of health savings accounts - the government mandates a percentage of your income that must go into a health account, but that health account is under your name and for use by you or your extended family. In that system, almost everyone has their own health savings, and no medical services are free, even the heavily subsidized ones. This means that the first X dollars of your health care always come out of your own pocket, which helps to contain costs. The government savings mandate ensures that everyone will have at least some money in their own personal account to contribute to the cost of their health care.

That gets back to the point I made earlier - the best way to control health care costs is to re-establish a connection between the consumer, the producer, and prices. The government in Singapore spends 3-4% of GDP on health care, but it has one of the best systems in the world.

Notice that there’s nothing ‘free market’ about this. It’s a public system with mandated health savings accounts and heavy government subsidies. But it’s a very smart structure that retains a key feature of the market - making consumers pay for their own consumption and therefore putting cost containment demands on providers.

There are some other features of a market system that I would like to see retained. One is that the wealthy should be able to pay for their own health care and have access to a private health care system. This is a major failing of Canada’s system, which doesn’t allow people with means to pay for their own care. One of the reasons this is important is because ‘early adopters’ who can afford expensive treatments are critical to R&D and innovation. Treatments that today are available to everyone were once only available to the wealthy. But if we don’t allow the wealthy to pay for such treatments, they’ll never be developed at all.

The rest of the world gets away with this in part because it free-rides on the U.S.'s vigorous and dynamic health care system which innovates a lot of new treatments and procedures. Take that away and it will hurt not just the U.S.'s health care system, but everyone else’s.

My apologies if I misinterpreted some of your remarks, but I’m just hypersensitized to the right-wing mantra of free markets and the profit motive solving all our problems and dragging that into the uniquely special arena of health care funding, with all of its ethical and moral issues.

Since this thread is about broader issues and not just health care, I’ll just touch on this one point which deals with the economic angle and leave it at that. You do raise a good point about medical innovation and R&D, and while I don’t agree with you there either, that discussion probably belongs in a dedicated health care policy thread.

That point about the alleged disconnect between producers, consumers, and payers is the substance of most of the rest of your post. Here’s why I don’t agree.

As with all complex issues, one can find stats that appear to support either side of the argument, but the premise is flawed because fundamentally it assumes that health care has a conventional price elasticity of demand similar to that of cars, washing machines, and luxury vacations. It doesn’t. If someone is sick and suffering or their life is at risk, their demand for medical treatment is relatively price-invariant. OTOH, if someone is perfectly well, they are not going to be inclined to go to the doctor for entertainment or get admitted to a hospital for a fun weekend getaway. Even if they were, such a premise overlooks the key role of primary care physicians as gatekeepers to the medical system, which is an important attribute of successful medical care models.

One can certainly make an argument that requiring some sort of co-pay logically has to be at least a minor disincentive to seeking medical care and so a potential protection against overuse. I would argue that overuse by patients has never been a significant issue or a cost problem (though ironically it can be when initiated by doctors, but that’s a different discussion), and that such a policy can prevent early diagnoses and impact a patient’s health while increasing costs in the long term, thus having the reverse of the intended effect. The fact of the matter is that that’s not where the real costs are. The real costs arise from (a) the lack of an effective systematic cost control structure, leading to the most egregious opportunistic gouging across the health care provider system, and (b) the extraordinary costs of administrating the almost mind-bogglingly complex claims process in the quagmire of US health care. Eliminate (a) and (b), and you solve the US out-of-control health care cost problem. This is what every other industrialized nation has done.

Interesting that both progressives and conservatives prefer single-payer to the ACA hodgepodge. Serious question: Were conservatives actively advocating single-payer during Congressional debates?
On the matter of government spending as a percent of GDP, first note the following:

(1) It is a major difference whether or not to include transfer payments. It may be silly to pronounce one approach “right” and another “wrong”, but most economists separate out transfer payments. This is certainly the more informative approach when the concern is government influence on the real economy. What difference does it make whether a regulated pension passes through a private or government agency?

Forcing some conservatives to look at budget details certainly does improve the quality of debate. When inchoate anger is directed against the sheer size of the budget, but they sing “Keep your guvmint hands off my Medicare” in the background, one really does see the need to focus on the actual budget breakdown.

(2) There are always going to be minor differences between one accounting and another. I often end up looking at FRB or Dept. of Commerce documents. Heritage.com wouldn’t be my choice, especially since the cited article appears to have no indication of source. (At least Sam didn’t quote Forbes.com. :smiley: )

(3) There has been a very pronounced decline in U.S. government spending between 2009 and 2013. See for example this graph.

(4) I don’t like to quibble over a few percent, but I do get tired of repeated errors. I’ll post cites to your previous exaggerations if you need them, but I’m happy to start now with a fresh slate. I’ll stipulate that 2013 numbers are hard to find and that you used 2011 numbers and called them “current”, accidentally overlooking that the Expend/GDP ratio has fallen sharply just in two years.

Linking to data sources is good. All the figures I’ve posted have sources, despite your accusations. Do you need the cites?

Oh my. Please reread my (1) above. Didn’t you grasp the exclusion of transfer payments? And do ask for cites, please. before impugning my numbers. I try to be careful, e.g. using 2013 numbers for 2013, etc.

Okay, that’s more reasonable.

I’ve got an even better one. Back in the days of the Bell System there were actually Western Electric salesmen to sell equipment to the operating companies. Easiest sales job in the world. But it didn’t drive innovation.
As in my example, companies without solid competition often invent competition, or try to make the feeble competition sound more powerful than they are. In any case, this debate happened all the time inside AT&T.

Most people wouldn’t think so. They certainly still have dominant market share today, but there are new markets in which they are not dominant. As for the predatory marketing, it involved giving major advertising subsidies for exclusively purchasing their products. Their dominance was so great that if they disappeared there would not have been enough manufacturing capability to satisfy demand.

New product segments where a company is not dominant in no way assuages there dominance in existing ones. I basically referred to your example already. Microsoft is still dominant in the PC market, and stay that way despite a series of products which are pretty much universally reviled. If my computer dies tomorrow I’m stuck with Windows 8. (I have critical programs which don’t run on Linux.) The alternative is to dig up an old computer with Win 7. Sure, in 20 years Microsoft is toast - doesn’t help me now.

But is it a monopoly or near-monopoly, loosely speaking? Those are the ones who stifle competition. Ones in the middle of the pack don’t.

My example was in no way a screwing of employees. It was more like the coach of the top football team make their next opponents, a team in the cellar, sound like a big threat. However it was discovered that big Silicon Valley companies had a no poach agreement with each other - so that Google would not try to hire someone from Apple and vice versa.

Two poor examples. The fundamental reason for patents is to limit competition temporarily. Now the US patent system is totally broken, but that’s another subject. But if you have out-competed your opposition in terms of innovation, why not get a benefit? The problem today is that if this were strictly enforce no one would be able to make anything.
As for the second, if the regulations are for a good cause (like reducing the amount of lead in the environment) why not level the playing field by giving those who might hurt their competitive position by expensive testing a compensating advantage? I’m fine with a company who has decided to reduce lead emissions lobbying to get everyone to do so. We are all better off. On the other hand we have good old Duke who used its political power to reduce inspections and regulation - and North Carolina has a toxic hazard in return.

Read one of the books on the Microsoft trial.

This has nothing to do with being a monopoly. I don’t think HP qualifies as one in any segment - but they are still pretty broken.

Also has nothing to do with being a monopoly, except that monopolies often have cash cow divisions which can fund this kind of reinvention. Which might not work. As noted in The Black Swan, success for product 1 does not mean you will have success in product 2, even if you say all those good words about reinvention. Which everyone does, of course. Win 8 is a reinvention. Just not a good one.

99% of the time, a business with no competition is a bankrupt business. Consumer demand for a product naturally breeds competition, for it is inordinately difficult to corner an entire market given the breadth of talents we human beings possess. Even a minor increase in efficiency in a competitor can immediately end an infantile monopoly.

The concern is when an enterprise can effectively squash its competition by lowering its price, or when an enterprise buys out all of its competition. A classic example of this is Microsoft, whom could not of its own volition “out-compete” everyone else, so it settled for buying all the minor innovations from potential competitors. The totality of this was to present a product that was all-inclusive in a way no other company could compete. Bear in mind, a lot of people became fabulously wealthy along the way. Including those who were bought out.

I agree with your sentiment that a company seeking monopoly is acting in its own self-interest. Sam Stone’s ardent denial of this is strikingly convoluted in its rationale. I do not, however, believe monopoly to be nearly the concern that you and others believe it is. They are the exception, and a case where government intervention is necessary and beneficial. That they have sprung up, quite sparingly in our industrial history, is not proof alone that the “invisible hand” can’t work.

I would like to see currency reform. No I am not a Ron Pauler, I am a man who tried to patent a currency once. The problem with a debt based currency is that debt has costs and consequences that are not reflected in the price. Debt amplifies business cycle putting people out of work for periods. This is time they are not creating real wealth. Debt even fake debt destroys relationships, marriage, business,personal, and governmental. Relationships are fundamental in economics. They are health and wealth as they are a means more wealth. In the movie “It’s a Wonderful life” there is a line that state “If a man has friends he is never poor”. Personally because of debt I have lost my houses, my health, friends, I have nothing to offer if any woman decides to marry me, I have lost teeth as I could not afford a dentist, I lost opportunities because I didn’t have the means to grasp them. Debt is Devastating.
Our currency is a debt based currency. For every dollar that is created a dollar of debt is created. We are shooting ourselves in the foot economically. Our currency is highly leveraged and small changes have big effect, often devastating effect to the creation and production of real wealth. The currency that I tried to patent was like a mutual fund that contained every tradable good and service thus maintaining the definition of stability in the market, the universal equilibrium. The shares would be split and reverse split to maintain equilibrium over time. Being a backed currency more shares would be created(thru splitting) for people to earn to meet their debt obligations early. My currency would circumnavigate the problems associated with our dated currency system allowing people to build wealth faster.