Were you replying to me in particular? If so, isn’t this the same thing I said a few posts up?
I was replying more to griffin1977’s notions but you said, “A white box could be worse or better, as you said.” That simply is not true. A white box that costs $700 less with the same cursory numbers as a Falcon machine (GHz, GB, RAM, CPU, Video Card) will not outperform the Falcon. You do get more for your money than just a “name”. Indeed part of the reason you pay a bit more for the name is because the name has built a rep for itself for making better machines. Falcon would not be in business if they built white box caliber computers and just decided to slap an extra $700 on the price tag.
By the way, Dell has also moved into decidely non-economic gaming computers. They’ve just released the limited-run 600 Renegade.
Specs include:
[ul][li]Pentium Extreme Edition Dual Core Processor, Overclocked to 4.26GHz[/li][li]2Gb Dual-Channel RAM, 667MHz[/li][li]4 x nVidia GeForce 7900 512Mb graphics processors (2Gb total graphics memory)[/li][li]Dual Western Digital Raptor 160Gb Raid 0 10,000rpm hard drives[/li][li]Western Digital 400Gb 7200rpm hard drive[/li][li]Soundblaster X-Fi Fatality Sound Card[/li][li]30" widescreen LCD Monitor[/li][li]Custom paint job by some biker dude.[/ul][/li]
All this for only $9,930.
And for that, you still only get a one-year warranty.
Well, maybe not always $700, but the last time I checked, you could get similar top-tier components in a DIY/barebones/whitebox/etc. system and still end up saving at least a few hundred bucks over Alienware (and probably Falcon).
In my experience, the price difference increases as the components get better – they seem to charge larger premiums on the fastest systems whereas the low-end or budget systems would be more comparable in price.
For example, let’s try the Falcon Mach V Example #3 on this page. Falcon charges $3560 for that setup. The same listed parts ordered from newegg.com add up to $2293 (including a random case and a similar USB flash drive – newegg didn’t have the exact same ones) – before rebates. That’s a difference of $1260 just by ordering from one single store and not even shopping around for better deals. The difference isn’t always this great, but it’s usually at least a few hundred bucks.
Oh, sorry, I forgot to add Windows XP. Add another $100 to $150 to newegg’s price for that.
I’m getting frustrated. I’ve looked at Alienware, Falcon, and Puget, and to get a decent AMD Athlon dual-core, 2Gig RAM, a single high-end 512Mb video card, and 250GB hard drive, I can’t seem to hit under $3K (except with Puget, just barely, with a really ugly case).
So where can I cut corners (I can’t build my own)? I’d rather make less consequential cuts, but I don’t know which cuts will help the budget with the least gaming sacrifice. Give up dual-core? Give up SLI? Which way do I go lower on video card?: go from Geforce 7900 down to Gf7800? or is it better to go from Gf7900 512Mb down to Gf7900 256Mb? Should I cut RAM to 1GB?
Whoops, that >$3k includes a low-end 17-in flatpanel.
I think you may also have neglected to factor in the cost of labour for assembly, plus a warranty and a support package. Not sure what newegg charge for that :dubious:
Now you are effectively saying that a pile of Lexus parts sufficient to build a complete running car is better value for money than a brand-new just-registered Lexus straight off the showroom floor of an approved dealer, if the parts are cheaper. That is not necessarily true.
brightpenny - warranty, support and the cost of having someone geeky enough to put it all together and make it work, not cheap. Having top-of-the-line premium priced components, not cheap. Both together, ouch.
To be honest, you would probably be OK with a 7900 256 or a 7800 512, and the option to slap another identical card into the machine in 12-18 months when that card is struggling with a new release. Not sure what that does to your cost.
I priced the Falcon setup you indicated and got $2,600 (I used New Egg where I could but went other places if New Egg did not carry that product…I always chose the lowest price I could find).
I configured a Dell system as near as I could to the Falcon one (granted I had to make a lot of guesses) and got a machine for $3,018. Mind you that is with a less capable video setup (they did not have a better choice). If I drop the Falcon system video to 2x NVidia 9500 GT cards (close to what Dell offers) I get $3,038 for the Falcon system. Note that Dell never tells you what parts they are using. Falcon does (memory, harddrive and so on). I bet the memory and hard drive in the Falcon rig are faster.
As slaphead mentioned you have to add in their trouble of ordering parts, assembling and providing a warranty not to mention pay for their accountants and HR department and advertising and provide them with a profit. At the end of it all that pricing seems acceptable.
A DIY system had better be cheaper.
Thanks! Still wondering about changing AMD Althlon 64 X2 4200+ dual core with HTT to Althlon 64 4000+ with HTT vs. cutting RAM from 2 to 1 GB? Which feature is more disposable?
It’s easier to add memory later than to swap CPUs, but really you could cut both and probably wouldn’t notice a difference. For gaming the 4000+ is actually faster than the X2.
Umm yes it will. If you get the exactly same spec hardware the difference will be negligible. Unless they do dodgy tricks like overclocking (which I would not touch with a barge pole).
Obviously… if you get a different type of harddisk from a different manufactuer it will not perform as well… If one machine has a toshiba HDD and the other a WD they are NOT the same spec. But but do Western Digital do not make a the Raptor-X purely for Aleinware or Falcon ? No. If you get the same spec from a “white box” you will be hard pushed to notice difference.
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You get the same issues with many components.
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But thats the point. Do Alienware or Falcon MANUFACTUER these components ? Do they have exclusive rights to sell them ? No. Any component you get from Falcon or Aleinware you can get from elsewhere, cheaper.
And how often have you had to change those options ?
I’ve found “white box” retailers with good knowledgable, helpful tech support. As I pointed out in my original message you have to be careful their are also some REALLY awful (and just plain fraudulent) PC retailers out there.
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My car analogy may not have been perfect but it was meant to underline the notions behind the machines. Buy an Aston Martin and you expect a high level of fit and finish. You expect best of breed components. You expect stellar performance. You expect first rate service if anything goes wrong. Buy a Mazda and you simply do not have the same expectations and it surprises no one when the Mazda does not deliver at the same level as the Aston Martin.
Does that mean the Aston Martin on a strict bang for your buck analysis is worth it? Hell no. You are definitely paying to be out on the bleeding edge of performance and luxury. If you are a car enthusiast and have the cash to spare you might buy one. For most of us on tighter budgets we come down from there to something we can manage. So too with computers.
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Yes but the REASON you you have that performance in the Aston Martin is a different car, with much bigger engine, totally different componets. The difference between an Alienware and a same spec White box is the difference between a the same Honda and Acura (say a RSX and Civic). They have the same engine, same gearbox, same chassis, the only difference is the tuning, cosmetic appearance, and marketing.
Slaphead and Whack-a-mole: No, definitely, I understand that Falcon will provide better support, assembly, etc. But whether that’s worth $1000 will depend on the buyer 
brightpenny: You might want to go down one level of graphics card because:
- The price difference between the highest-level one and one just a bit lower can be a few hundred bucks, yet the performance difference might only be 10% or so with current-gen games.
- Graphics cards change very rapidly and even the best card will only last a year or so. Think of it this way: You could spend twice the money for 10% extra performance now, or you could save half the money and get 2x the performance a year later.
- The graphics card is much easer to replace/upgrade than a CPU, and will usually give you a bigger performance boost when you do upgrade them. A dual-core 64 bit Athlon should last quite a while, barring sudden dramatic changes in the way games are made.
And have you considered using two lower cards running in SLI mode? That might give you similar performance for a lower price.
And about the CPU vs RAM, stick with the dual core. RAM easier to upgrade than the CPU. Just buy a $150 stick a few months later and stick it in – even if you can’t build an entire system, a stick of RAM is just a matter of opening the case and finding the right slot for it. A knowledgeable friend could do it for you in 5 minutes. You still get the Alienware/Falcon benefits but without their premium for an additional stick of RAM. (Same with the graphics card, BTW.)
That’s just the thing. If you get exactly the same hardware then your price difference will be small…very small. Add in better customer support, perhaps a better warranty and you have your difference. Even if you have had good customer support from a bargain retailer I can almost guarantee they are still not as good as Falcon support. I call a LOT of tech support people in my job and I can definitely spot the difference.
As for overclocking it isn’t that big a deal if you know what you are doing. That $9000 Dell advertises itself as being overclocked.
This is worth elaborating on a bit.
Go check Dell or Gateway’s web pages and look up some PCs. Note that they never tell you who the manufacturer is for a given component save the CPU and video card. That means one week a given machine may have Seagate hard drives and the next it’ll be Toshiba (I’ve actually seen this when taking delivery of 500 Dells for a customer…all identically specced but there was hardware by different manufacturers in the machines). All Dell guarantees are the broad specs of the item. So to them a 100GB, 7200RPM, SATA drive is the same among all manufacturers. With RAM you latency timings are not specified. Compare this to Falcon who tells you precisely what it is that is going into your PC. Also note that best of breed items will always be pricey so they will never be found in a Dell or Gateway machine (except perhaps for that $9000 joke).
As I pointed out to a previous poster it shocked me that places like Alienware and Dell don’t print this info (I never buy named brand, and CERTAINLY would not advocate buying Dell)… Another reason to buy from a decent generic retailer, who can tell exactly what your paying for. (If Raptor do actual tell you exactly what their putting in your PC then I guess thats one reason to choose them over a supplier that didn’t, if you were set on ).
Also as I pointed out earlier, the while their is obviously a huge different between to different companies making different spec components (Interl/AMD, ATI/Nvidia, Seagate/WD, etc), difference between the same spec component made by two different manfuactures (e.g. an Nvidia 6800 Ultra made by eVGA, compared to the same card made by PNY) is small.
I’d back off in this order till I hit a price point I could live with.
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Drop from 2GB to 1GB of RAM. 1GB is more than sufficient for most tasks these days and adding more RAM down the road if you decide you do need it is simple (as someone else mentioned maybe 5 minutes of work of which 4 minutes is opening and closing the case). With the money saved I would look closely at better RAM. Specifically you are looking for the latency numbers (sometimes seen as one number like CL=3 or CAS3 [CL=CAS Latency] and other times as a string of numbers such as 2-3-2-6). If you do not care about gaming or other intensive programs like video editing then do not worry about the latency numbers.
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Skip SLI and buy just one video card. While SLI is almost certainly the way of the future today it does not deliver all that much unless you are running at 1600x1200 resolution. By all means get an SLI capable mobo and just add in a second card somewhere down the road if you like. In the short term a single card (especially a better single card from the money you saved by buying just one) will do you just fine. (BTW…video card makers are now on about using the SLI setup to calculate physics [e.g. a pile of rocks boucing around] instead of the CPU as by their nature they’d be very good at it…keep an eye out for this)
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Lower the CPU spec. It is harder to swap a CPU than the other items above. I have not made up my mind between the dual core CPUs and single core ones. Again dual core is likely the way of the future but today you do not get much benefit from it (software hasn’t been written, in most cases, to take advantage of it). I’d probably try and stick with the dual core unless pushed for price reasons and then slip “down” to a single core chip. Mind you a single core chip these days can perform every bit as good (in some cases better) as a dual core in most situations so don’t feel like your system sucks without dual core.
Generally true. Sometimes a given manufacturer will goose their product a bit but usually they all perform about the same. In this case the choice is made on how reliable you think the manufacturer is (quality of build), price point, software bundle and so on.