# Economic solution to the Gaza conflict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778 "2014-07-22T21:52:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/141 "2014-08-05T13:52:22Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] I don’t think you understand. Occupation does not mean the absence of resistance. You can have control and still have guys taking pot shots at you. [/QUOTE] Certainly…look at Iraq or Afghanistan for instance. However, the Israeli’s have NO control in Gaza, which is why they are constantly reacting to what Hamas et al are doing, and need things like blockades in place. > [@](#): > > Yep, critics of Israel are anti-semites. To paraphrase, guilty man flees when no one pursueth… I didn’t say anything about anti-Semitism or that you were an anti-Semite, those are your words. If you need me to spell out what I was saying there, it’s that you don’t know much about this subject yet you have strong opinions and make assertions that underscore your ignorance. > [@](#): > > And you don’t see anything to be gained by separating the two? I don’t see any realistic way to do so, especially since this isn’t a black and white stance for people in that region, but more shades of gray. I don’t believe the OPs attempt to bribe Palestinians to leave is workable or realistic. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/142 "2014-08-05T14:45:54Z")
> [@dofe](#): > > Leaving aside the problems already mentioned by others, I’m not clear why you think $50,000 per individual is enough to incentivize countries to open their immigration doors. That is not a lot of money, especially for refugees starting a new life basically from scratch. And then what happens once the money is gone? My friend works as an Iraqi refugee aid, so I know something of the process of settling people into the U.S. It takes a lot of work and resources to settle refugees into a new country. You don’t just give them cash and drop them off the sidewalk. I don’t know about that. Heck, I know people who’d move _to_ Gaza for $50,000. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/143 "2014-08-05T14:55:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t really have a strict definition of “occupy”. I think most reasonable people would conclude that Gaza was still occupied by Israel when Israel controls access in and out as well as access to services like electricity and phones(I was genuinely surprised none of the “we hate Israel” crowd picked up on that with Israel’s warning phone calls). > > Now, perhaps you could explain why you chose to pull a Godwin and compare the Jews of Israel to Nazis? Most reasonable people _would_ conclude Gaza _is_ occupied? I’m not sure what a “Godwin” is, but I’m sure it’s occurred to many people that the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel bares some similarity to the treatment of the Jews by Germany. But I realize Israel has no final solution to the Palestinian problem. I mean they’re not systematically killing them. So it’s not a great comparison. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/144 "2014-08-05T15:08:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You mean world war II?? In that case, absolutely Germany occupied the Jewish ghettos in Warsaw and similar places…they occupied the entire country in fact (assuming you meant to say WWII and you mean Poland…hard to say, to be honest, what you actually meant here since it’s either off the wall or a no brainer). > > As for my definition, I’d go with take possession of or control…which Israel doesn’t do in Gaza. They COULD do that…and perhaps if enough rockets fly they WILL do it in the future. When they have boots on the ground and control the whole region and place it under martial law, THEN they will be occupying it. If you build a wall around a strip of desert, control everything that does in and out - including food, water, medicine or electricity - and every_one_ who goes in and out, would you consider that a form of occupation? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/145 "2014-08-05T15:27:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you having trouble opening the links to the dictionary definitions? Or do you just not like what they say? You claimed that the Wiki definition of Zionism was not “(t)he belief that the Jews are a nation and that Israel is their homeland”. The problem is that your assertion is wrong - the Wiki defintion does, in fact, say the same thing. > [@](#): > > We’re still talking about how long Zionism has been around right? We were talking about the Wiki definition of Zionism. Which is why you and I mentioned the Wiki definition of Zionism. Your claim about the defnition of Zionism is wrong. Itis, in fact, the belief that the Jews are a nation and that Israel is their homeland. And that belief existed many centuries before the movement towards founding the modern state of Israel. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/146 "2014-08-05T18:49:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, despite physical evidence you are willing to say you believe Israel occupies Gaza based on some articles you’ve read? 😛 Well, not much I can say about that. > > In 2001 Israel actually DID still occupy Gaza (they didn’t move out until either 2004 or 2005 IIRC), so yeah…it wasn’t bad. If you mean was the plight of the Palestinians in 2001 in general good, the answer to that is no…but then, you’d have to actually look at the history to see that rocket attacks weren’t in vogue before that… **instead it was suicide bombings and bombings of malls, coffee shops and the like which the Palestinians preferred before they decided that tossing rockets was fun** (not that they have given up on the old stuff entirely). The point still stands…the Palestinians as a whole would be better off if they (or the militant faction) didn’t periodically attack Israel with the intent of provoking a response. It’s hard for me to see how anyone can justify their behavior, so watching threads like this is instructional. > > No idea what you are getting at here. I don’t see continual periodic (and pointless from a military perspective) rocket attacks as being any sort of ‘self selection’, nor do I think that doing so and having Israel retaliate by bombing the crap out of the areas where the rockets were fired from or where they think Hamas is hiding does much to improve the over all welfare and well being of Palestinians in Gaza. Bolding mine. Let me try this sentence: “It was raping and stealing that blacks preferred, until they decided dealing crack and killing people was more fun.” What you’re doing is prejudice and collective punishment: taking the acts of a few individuals, and making everyone responsible for them. Approximately 75% of the population of Gaza is women and children. Are they responsible for everything that Hamas does? Or for that matter, are they responsible for anything any angry Palestinian does? Before they made peace, the IRA carried out dozens, if not hundreds of attacks in London and the rest of the UK. Would the British government have been entitled to blow up apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, in response? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/147 "2014-08-05T18:55:30Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, except for the fact that it’s that very lack of control in the region that allows for things like rocket attacks and bombings/raid and necessitates the imposition of a blockade in the first place. So, I guess that negates whatever loopy point you were trying to make here. Glad we cleared that up then. By that logic, the US doesn’t control the US, because terrorist attacks (and other crimes) occur here. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/148 "2014-08-05T19:19:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > There are few things more amusing than watching a gentile so ignorant about Judaism he had no idea what the phrase “next year in Jerusalem” meant try and tell Jews he knows better than them what constitutes Zionism. Gentile? How do you know? And once again. Its not a very persuasive form of argument to counter cites to wikipedia and the dictionary about the definition of Zionism and the Zionist Movement with your assurances that the dictionary is wrong and that Zionism actually means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/149 "2014-08-05T19:22:28Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > By that logic, the US doesn’t control the US, because terrorist attacks (and other crimes) occur here. Yeah, 'cause that’s an every day events here in the states and all. 😛 You might have noticed that these things happen between Hamas and Israel a touch more frequently than they do between, oh, say Texas and Oklahoma…or the US and Mexico/Canada for that matter. Or, well, anywhere else that isn’t a total freaking war zone. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/150 "2014-08-05T19:30:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Certainly…look at Iraq or Afghanistan for instance. However, the Israeli’s have NO control in Gaza, which is why they are constantly reacting to what Hamas et al are doing, and need things like blockades in place. Once again, I don’t think gaza is occupied but the argument cannot be waved away as having no merit. When was Gaza really free from control after the pullout? And if it is not occupied then what is it? Is it a sovereign nation? In that case isn’t the blockade an act of war? I am not an expert on international relations but IIRC, Gaza is either occupied by virtue of the continued control over gaza as exemplified by the blockade and Israel is saddled with a set of obligations towards gazans or Gaza is sovereign and the blockade is an act of war. > [@](#): > > To paraphrase, guilty man flees when no one pursueth… > > I didn’t say anything about anti-Semitism or that you were an anti-Semite, those are your words. And you’re not saying anything about anti-semitism here either. > [@](#): > > I don’t see any realistic way to do so, especially since this isn’t a black and white stance for people in that region, but more shades of gray. I don’t believe the OPs attempt to bribe Palestinians to leave is workable or realistic. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/151 "2014-08-05T19:33:10Z")
[QUOTE=LinusK] Let me try this sentence: “It was raping and stealing that blacks preferred, until they decided dealing crack and killing people was more fun.” [/QUOTE] Um…this is a total strawman. > [@](#): > > What you’re doing is prejudice and collective punishment: taking the acts of a few individuals, and making everyone responsible for them. Approximately 75% of the population of Gaza is women and children. Are they responsible for everything that Hamas does? Or for that matter, are they responsible for anything any angry Palestinian does? They voted Hamas into power. Your blacks stawman in no way is analogous to me saying (correctly) that the Palestinians were responsible for what is happening between Hamas and Israel. A better (and less ridiculous and deliberately inflaming) analogy would be saying that Americans were responsible for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. True, not all Americans are or were responsible for that (there are, in fact, women and children in the US too, contrary to popular belief), but the statement is still not false. > [@](#): > > Before they made peace, the IRA carried out dozens, if not hundreds of attacks in London and the rest of the UK. Would the British government have been entitled to blow up apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, in response? Your logic is truly dizzying. This would be analogous to saying that Israel is responsible for the attacks Hamas is doing, so not seeing your point here. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/152 "2014-08-05T19:44:52Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] And you’re not saying anything about anti-semitism here either. [/QUOTE] Nope, I didn’t…again. You were the one who opened that can of worms, not I. > [@](#): > > Once again, I don’t think gaza is occupied but the argument cannot be waved away as having no merit. When was Gaza really free from control after the pullout? And if it is not occupied then what is it? Is it a sovereign nation? In that case isn’t the blockade an act of war? I am not an expert on international relations but IIRC, Gaza is either occupied by virtue of the continued control over gaza as exemplified by the blockade and Israel is saddled with a set of obligations towards gazans or Gaza is sovereign and the blockade is an act of war. The PNA was given full control of the Gaza strip when Israel pulled out under the Oslo Accords. Subsequent events are what imposed the blockade (and the split between Hamas and Fatah further mucked things up wrt West Bank verse Gaza). I could only find a quick [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine) article on this but it doesn’t seem bad: > [@](#): > > History > Declaration of Independence (1988) > See also: Palestinian Declaration of Independence and Proposals for a Palestinian state § Declaration of the state in 1988 > > Declassified diplomatic documents reveal that in 1974, on the eve of the UN debate that granted the PLO an observer status, some parts of the PLO leadership were considering to proclaim the formation of a Palestinian government in exile at some point.[95] This plan, however, was not carried out. > > The Palestinian Declaration of Independence was approved by the Palestinian National Council (PNC) in Algiers on 15 November 1988, by a vote of 253 in favour, 46 against and 10 abstentions. It was read by Yasser Arafat at the closing session of the 19th PNC to a standing ovation.[36] Upon completing the reading of the declaration, Arafat, as Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization assumed the title of “President of Palestine”.[96] > > Referring to “the historical injustice inflicted on the Palestinian Arab people resulting in their dispersion and depriving them of their right to self-determination,” the declaration recalled the Treaty of Lausanne (1923) and UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947 Partition Plan) as supporting the rights of Palestinians and Palestine. The declaration then proclaims a “State of Palestine on our Palestinian territory with its capital Jerusalem”.[97][98] The borders of the declared State of Palestine were not specified. The population of the state was referred to by the statement: “The State of Palestine is the state of Palestinians wherever they may be”. The state was defined as an Arab country by the statement: “The State of Palestine is an Arab state, an integral and indivisible part of the Arab nation”. The declaration was accompanied by a PNC call for multilateral negotiations on the basis of UN Security Council Resolution 242. This call was later termed “the Historic Compromise”,[99] as it implied acceptance of the “two-state solution”, namely that it no longer questioned the legitimacy of the State of Israel.[98] The PNC’s political communiqué accompanying the declaration called only for withdrawal from “Arab Jerusalem” and the other “Arab territories occupied.”[100] Arafat’s statements in Geneva a month later[101][102] were accepted by the United States as sufficient to remove the ambiguities it saw in the declaration and to fulfill the longheld conditions for open dialogue with the United States.[103][104] > > As a result of the declaration, the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) convened, inviting Arafat, Chairman of the PLO to give an address. An UNGA resolution was adopted “acknowledging the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988,” and it was further decided that “the designation ‘Palestine’ should be used in place of the designation ‘Palestine Liberation Organization’ in the United Nations system,” and it delegate was assigned a seated in the UN General Assembly immediately after non-member states, and before all other observers.[24][105] One hundred and four states voted for this resolution, forty-four abstained, and two – the United States and Israel – voted against.[55][106] By mid-December, seventy-five states had recognized Palestine, rising to eighty-nine states by February 1989.[75]:49 > > By the 1988 declaration, the PNC empowered its central council to form a government-in-exile when appropriate, and called upon its executive committee to perform the duties of the government-in-exile until its establishment.[36] > Palestinian Authority (1994) > Main article: Palestinian National Authority > > Under the terms of the Oslo Accords signed between Israel and the PLO, the latter assumed control over the Jericho area of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip on 17 May 1994. On 28 September 1995, following the signing of the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israeli military forces withdrew from the West Bank towns of Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Jenin, Tulkarem, Qalqilya and Bethlehem. In December 1995, the PLO also assumed responsibility for civil administration in 17 areas in Hebron.[107] While the PLO assumed these responsibilities as a result of Oslo, a new temporary interim administrative body was set up as a result of the Accords to carry out these functions on the ground: the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). > > An analysis outlining the relationship between the PLO, the PNA (or PA), Palestine and Israel in light of the interim arrangements set out in the Oslo Accords begins by stating that, “Palestine may best be described as a transitional association between the PA and the PLO.” It goes on to explain that this transitional association accords the PA responsibility for local government and the PLO responsibility for representation of the Palestinian people in the international arena, while prohibiting it from concluding international agreements that affect the status of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. This situation is said to be accepted by the Palestinian population insofar as it is viewed as a temporary arrangement.[108] > > In 2005, following the implementation of Israel’s unilateral disengagement plan, PNA gained full control of the Gaza Strip with the exception of its borders, airspace, and territorial waters.[iii] This increased the percentage of land in the Gaza strip nominally governed by the PA from 60 percent to 100 percent. > > The West Bank and Gaza Strip continued to be considered by the international community to be Occupied Palestinian Territory, notwithstanding the 1988 declaration of Palestinian independence, the limited self-government accorded to the Palestinian Authority as a result of the 1993 Oslo Accords, and Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza as part of the Israel’s unilateral disengagement plan of 2005, which saw the dismantlement of four Israeli settlements in the West Bank and all settlements in the Gaza Strip.[109] > > In March 2008, it was reported that the PA was working to increase the number of countries that recognize Palestine and that a PA representative had signed a bilateral agreement between the State of Palestine and Costa Rica.[110] A recent Al-Haq position paper said the reality is that the PA has entered into various agreements with international organizations and states. These instances of foreign relations undertaken by the PA signify that the Interim Agreement is part of a larger on-going peace process, and that the restrictions on the foreign policy operations of the PA conflict with the inalienable right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, now a norm with a nature of jus cogens, which includes a right to engage in international relations with other peoples.[111] > > When the PA is exercising the power that is granted to them by the Oslo Accords, they’re acting in the capacity of an agency whose authority is based on an agreement between Israel and the PLO and not as a state.[112] > Split of the Fatah and Hamas > Main articles: Hamas-Fatah conflict and Governance of the Gaza Strip > > In 2007, after Hamas’s legislative victories, the Fatah and Hamas engaged into a violent conflict, taking place mainly in the Gaza Strip, leading to effective collapse of the Palestinian national unity government. After the takeover in Gaza by Hamas on 14 June 2007, Palestinian Authority Chairman Abbas dismissed the Hamas-led government and appointed Salam Fayyad as Prime Minister. Though the new government’s authority is claimed to extend to all Palestinian territories, in effect it became limited to the West Bank, as Hamas hasn’t recognized the move and continued to rule the Gaza Strip. While PNA budget comes mainly from various aid programs and support of the Arab League, the Hamas Government in Gaza became dependent mainly on Iran until the eruption of the Arab Spring. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/153 "2014-08-05T19:47:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Gentile? How do you know? You have in the past identified yourself as “a non-Jew” so I’ll assume your question is genuine and not an attempt to stir the pot. A “gentile” is a “non-Jew” unless Mormons are using the term in which case it’s a non-Mormon. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/154 "2014-08-05T19:47:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Once again, I don’t think gaza is occupied but the argument cannot be waved away as having no merit. When was Gaza really free from control after the pullout? And if it is not occupied then what is it? Is it a sovereign nation? In that case isn’t the blockade an act of war? I am not an expert on international relations but IIRC, Gaza is either occupied by virtue of the continued control over gaza as exemplified by the blockade and Israel is saddled with a set of obligations towards gazans or Gaza is sovereign and the blockade is an act of war. Certainly the Israeli blockade is an Israeli Act of War - or would be, if Israel was ever at peace with Hamas. However, it is a fundamental aspect of the Hamas Charter to reject the very notion of peace with Israel. The canard is often circulated that Israel still “occupies” Gaza (even after its 2005 withdrawal) because Israel allegedly has “effective contol” over Gaza. This claim is, on its face, nonsense. Israel has no “effective control” over Gaza - a fact somewhat proven by the fact that Israel just fought a war with Gaza. The whole point of having such a status as “occupied territory” was to tag the “occupier” with governmental and humanitarian duties towards the “occupied”, exactly because they did not have an armed force or authority of their own. The notion that Israel must somehow deliver such rights and services to folks living in a territory at war with them simply defies reality. Israel is not, in any way that makes meaningful sense, “occupying” Gaza. Certainly, it is subjecting it to a blockade, but that does not an “occupation” make - or (say) Germany could be said to have “occupied” England during WW2 (and vice versa), as both subjected the other to a blockade. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/155 "2014-08-05T20:06:21Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > What you’re doing is prejudice and collective punishment: taking the acts of a few individuals, and making everyone responsible for them. Actually Israel is trying rather hard to spare civilians and not make them take the brunt of the actions of Hamas. Hamas itself is doing what it can to shift the danger away from their cowardly and despicable selves, and onto their own people, by firing their rockets from schools and hospitals. So it is actually the acts of a few individuals - Hamas - who are making everyone “responsible” for them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/156 "2014-08-06T15:13:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Nope, I didn’t…again. You were the one who opened that can of worms, not I. So your quote doesn’t imply that I am seeing accusations of anti-semitism because I am anti-semitic? > [@](#): > > The PNA was given full control of the Gaza strip when Israel pulled out under the Oslo Accords. Subsequent events are what imposed the blockade (and the split between Hamas and Fatah further mucked things up wrt West Bank verse Gaza). I could only find a quick [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine) article on this but it doesn’t seem bad: OK, I think you’re right. Gaza is not occupied and the folks who make an argument based on the blockade for occupation are missing a couple of years of history. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/157 "2014-08-06T15:16:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Israel is not, in any way that makes meaningful sense, “occupying” Gaza. Certainly, it is subjecting it to a blockade, but that does not an “occupation” make - or (say) Germany could be said to have “occupied” England during WW2 (and vice versa), as both subjected the other to a blockade. I think that the argument is that a blockade does not make an occupation but a blockade can extend an occupation after the occupier physically leaves the land. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/158 "2014-08-06T15:36:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think that the argument is that a blockade does not make an occupation but a blockade can extend an occupation after the occupier physically leaves the land. That is indeed the argument, but it doesn’t make any sense. For one, the Israeli blockade did not occur simultaneous with Israel leaving. It was imposed _after_ Hamas came into power and started attacking. For another, imposing “occupation” status on a situation in which the “occupier” lacks any physical ability to carry out the duties that “occupation status” by international law imposes on an “occupier” (because, in fact, they aren’t physically “occupying” and so cannot provide any protection or governmental duties) simply. Makes. No. Sense. The law of “belligerent occupation” presumes that the “occupier” IS the SOLE military authority in the area- in effect, that the war in that territory is over and the “occupier” has won, and rules over a (more or less) supine population. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/159 "2014-08-06T16:46:55Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, 'cause that’s an every day events here in the states and all. 😛 You might have noticed that these things happen between Hamas and Israel a touch more frequently than they do between, oh, say Texas and Oklahoma…or the US and Mexico/Canada for that matter. Or, well, anywhere else that isn’t a total freaking war zone. I think you’re missing the point. You can control territory without controlling what every person in that territory does. And you don’t punish everyone for the actions of a few. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778/160 "2014-08-06T20:27:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um…this is a total strawman. It’s not a strawman. I replaced your word with another one to show you regard “the Palestinians” as some sort of monolithic group of people, and to show your prejudice. > [@](#): > > They voted Hamas into power. Who I’d “they”? Does that include the children? The women? Does it include the people who voted against Hamas? If you vote for a president, or a party, in your country, does that make you personally responsible for everything the president or the party does? > [@](#): > > Your blacks stawman in no way is analogous to me saying (correctly) that the Palestinians were responsible for what is happening between Hamas and Israel. A better (and less ridiculous and deliberately inflaming) analogy would be saying that Americans were responsible for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. True, not all Americans are or were responsible for that (there are, in fact, women and children in the US too, contrary to popular belief), but the statement is still not false. It is false. I voted against George Bush, and demonstrated against those wars. If you’re a Republican, you can hold yourself responsible, if you want. In any case, the US did not hold all Iraqis responsible for the actions of Sadaam Husein, or for the Taliban. That would be stupid. It would be like holding all Gazans responsible for the handful who are firing rockets. It’s immoral, illegal, stupid, and counter-productive. > [@](#): > > Your logic is truly dizzying. This would be analogous to saying that Israel is responsible for the attacks Hamas is doing, so not seeing your point here. I think the problem is you see this as a war between two countries. This is not a war between two countries. This is a war between one country, Israel, and a group of refugees, mostly women and children, living in a strip of desert, where literally everything that goes in and out is controlled by the same country that made them refugees in the first place. It’s mostly not even a war. It’s mostly just a slaughter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economic-solution-to-the-gaza-conflict/693778.md?page=9)