# Economics of electric vehicles **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 16, 2024, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908 "2024-03-16T12:34:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/61 "2024-03-29T17:16:48Z")
Tesla’s literally do not need to be serviced aside from adding windshield wiper fluid and rotating the tires. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/62 "2024-03-29T17:20:32Z")
sorry if I appear insistent on that topic (hey it IS OnTopic) … so they don’t have those pesky maintainance-booklets, which need to be rubberstamped, every 10.000km etc… I assume they do not insist on rotating tires at a Tesla-facility… ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/63 "2024-03-29T17:22:37Z")
There is brake maintenance, but since they are used a lot less than in an ICE, that maintenance is far less often. > [@Al128](#): > > … so they don’t have those pesky maintainance-booklets, which need to be rubberstamped, every 10.000km etc… Here are the maintenance service intervals for my Model Y: - Brake fluid health check every 4 years (replace if necessary)\*. - A/C desiccant bag replacement every 4 years. - Cabin air filter replacement every 2 years. - HEPA filter replacement every 3 years. - Clean and lubricate brake calipers every year or 12,500 miles (20,000 km) if in an area where roads are salted during winter. - Rotate tires every 6,250 miles (10,000 km) or if tread depth difference is 2/32 in (1.5 mm) or greater, whichever comes first. This is from [https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en\_us/GUID-E95DAAD9-646E-4249-9930-B109ED7B1D91.html](https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-E95DAAD9-646E-4249-9930-B109ED7B1D91.html) And no, Tesla doesn’t have to do the tire rotations. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/64 "2024-03-29T17:23:13Z")
I don’t thinks any car sold in the US has that. In fact, if the dealer/automaker is trying to deny a warranty claim due to non-OEM parts or service they are required to prove the failure was related to that service. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/65 "2024-03-29T20:26:31Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > We are at $0.10/ kWh. You are very lucky, I think. We are at around $0.40 kWh off-peak. Last month’s bill was $123 for electricity. Do you have a sense of how much a charge of, say, 50% to 100% charged, would cost you? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/66 "2024-03-29T20:42:24Z")
Yeah, my math may be faulty. I pay $.203 per kilowatt/hour. I get 2.3 miles per kwh. My RAV4 Prime gets 42 miles per gallon. What did I figure wrong? ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/67 "2024-03-29T20:53:24Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > 50% to 100% charged, would cost you? That’s around 40 kWh so $4.00. With our winter driving conditions (worse than what we should expect once it warms up), we’ve been getting 3.2 miles to a kWh so that would be about 130 miles of range from that $4. Now that it is warming up, I am starting to see some better Wh/mile numbers. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yeah, my math may be faulty. I pay $.203 per kilowatt/hour. I get 2.3 miles per kwh. My RAV4 Prime gets 42 miles per gallon. What did I figure wrong? It looks like three differences: - Your electricity is twice as expensive as ours - Your EV isn’t as efficient as our Model Y - Your Rav4 gets way better mileage than our Subaru (25 MPG on average) These numbers are going to be different for all, but for us, it is significantly less expensive per mile. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/68 "2024-03-29T21:15:16Z")
My price per kwh is supply + delivery. Offpeak supply is $.083/kwh. But delivery adds another $.12/kwh. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/69 "2024-03-29T21:35:45Z")
We don’t have delivery charges. We do have a flat charge of $9/month to have electricity service (another flat $9/month if you have gas service) but I don’t include that because I would have that $9 charge without the EV. It hasn’t gone up due to the EV. If I did, it would add ~$0.02 to our per kWh charge for our average power usage. But again, I won’t since I pay it either way. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/70 "2024-04-13T04:20:34Z")
Sales of electric vehicles in Canada have been slowing, according to an article in the Financial Post: > [@](#): > > The number of zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) has been increasing, according to new vehicle registrations in Canada. In 2023, ZEVs accounted for about 10.8 per cent of all such registrations, according to Statistics Canada, nearly a 50 per cent increase from 2022 and a 114.6 per cent increase compared to 2021. > > However, the pace of sales has been cut in half, according to J.D. Power, a global data and analytics firm. In the first quarter of 2023, it took an average of 22 days to sell an EV in Canada compared to about 42 days for a gas-powered vehicle. Today, it takes about 55 days to sell an electric vehicle, compared to 51 days for a gasoline car. > > “The gap has narrowed dramatically,” Robert Karwel, a senior manager at J.D. Power’s Power Information Network, said. “While the total market in Canada has slowed down, it’s EVs that have slowed down by more than double.” > > The EV market seems to be facing challenges moving from early adopters to the mass market. Karwel describes early adopters as consumers who were not necessarily concerned about the cost of an EV, but wanted to be associated with the “newest, coolest and latest technology.” > > As such, the sale of luxury EVs has been doubling every year over the past five years, he said. These are bought by wealthier customers who tend to own a house and a garage, so they don’t face any issues charging their vehicles. > > But the market now seems to be looking for more general buyers at a mass level, which has proven to be difficult for several reasons, including high prices and poor performance. > **['Tall order to ask the average Canadian': EVs are twice as hard to sell today](https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicles/evs-twice-hard-sell-today-compared-2023)** > > Canada’s goal of ensuring that at least 20% of new vehicles sold by 2026 are electric seems to be in jeopardy as demand slows. Find out more ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/71 "2024-04-13T04:24:48Z")
The article goes on to indicate difficulties with repairs, lack of charging facilities, prices, and concerns with battery performance in cold weather. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/72 "2024-04-13T14:30:21Z")
We have now hit 3000 miles in our EV and it has cost approximately $140 to charge. That wouldn’t even get us 1000 miles in our Subaru. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/73 "2024-04-13T14:58:12Z")
The article is discussing purchase prices for the vehicle itself, which it reports is a barrier to market penetration, not the operating cost. Government subsidies for purchases are to be phased out in the next few years, which will likely exacerbate the issue. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/74 "2024-04-13T15:11:28Z")
I was giving an update on my experiences of the economics of EVs, not a rebutall on the article. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/75 "2024-04-13T15:12:27Z")
Sure, but purchase price is part of the economics of EVs. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/76 "2024-04-13T15:21:17Z")
OK but ICE cars arern’t given away for free. Nor are oil changes and other routine maintenance. Not that the article doesn’t have merit. EVs are useless without proper infrastructure or the ability to charge at home (or work in some cases). Cold weather is very much an issue for range but much less of one per capita in the US versus Canada. None of this is much of an issue on the West Coast and South West of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/77 "2024-04-13T15:35:35Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > OK but ICE cars arern’t given away for free. Nor are oil changes and other routine maintenance. True, but the article makes the point that the prices for EVs are considerably higher: > While charging is an issue, Karwel’s data suggests Canadians are more concerned about prices. On average, an EV costs about $15,000 more than a gas-powered car before any government incentives are applied. This increases to $20,000 if customers compare “apples to apples” and look to buy specific EV versions of their existing gas-powered cars, he said. And, according to Consumer Reports, maintenance costs for EVs may also be higher: > EV owners reported 79 per cent more problems with their powertrains over the past three years than owners of gas-powered vehicles, according to Consumer Reports’ latest annual car reliability survey. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/78 "2024-04-13T15:56:22Z")
> [@](#): > > On average, an EV costs about $15,000 more than a gas-powered car before any government incentives are applied. This increases to $20,000 if customers compare “apples to apples” and look to buy specific EV versions of their existing gas-powered cars, he said. “before government incentives” and “look to buy specific EV versions of existing” are pretty huge caveats. It’s not Canada but I got $7500 from the Feds and $1000 from the City for a Tesla which made the price of the vehicle comperable to an equivalent car. To be fair different people will have different definitions of equivalent. As has been noted, there are claims that traditional ICE manufacturers are pricing such that people are steered towards the ICE version because they will give them more service dollars. There are nearly twice as many issues with the powertrain. OK, is that twice as many as a large number or a very small one? That’s just the powertrain. What about the engine and the transmission? Can you see how that is a silly comparison? What is the overall percentage of problems with each type car generally for everything? We also need to include the cost of regular maintenance like oil changes and other sevices. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/79 "2024-04-14T00:25:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Sure, but purchase price is part of the economics of EVs. Not trying to be snarky, but the operational costs are also part of the economics of EVs. If you don’t want me posting in this thread with my experiences, I can bow out. In our particular case, the hybrid car we were considering was a bit less than the EV we ended up buying, but the PHEV alternative was quite a bit more (Rav4). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908/80 "2024-04-14T00:28:01Z")
I’m sorry. I’m not trying to be snarky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economics-of-electric-vehicles/998908.md?page=5)