# Economist - "Claims that US 'poor are getting poorer' is largely a myth" - Is he correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343 "2011-12-25T06:07:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/21 "2011-12-25T21:52:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The other “debate” is whether the disparity is a problem. Just the fact of the disparity isn’t. If I am comfortable financially, it really doesn’t matter to me that that guy over there has become fabulously wealthy. It does matter to the sustainability of the economy though. Advantages tend to multiply. More income through sector domination or efficiency means more money to sink into improving your position through sector domination or efficiency. And once the rich can exercise monopsony power in the advertising market, cultivate their own pet politicians from seed, & otherwise shut you out, then it does have an effect on your ability to catch up. If you’re happy with peonage, sure, you’ll be happy. But you are losing relative opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/22 "2011-12-25T21:54:30Z")
I have yet to see any evidence that politicians are more “on the take” now than they have been in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/23 "2011-12-25T22:37:46Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It does matter to the sustainability of the economy though. Advantages tend to multiply. More income through sector domination or efficiency means more money to sink into improving your position through sector domination or efficiency. > > And once the rich can exercise monopsony power in the advertising market, cultivate their own pet politicians from seed, & otherwise shut you out, then it does have an effect on your ability to catch up. > > If you’re happy with peonage, sure, you’ll be happy. But you are losing relative opportunity. I don’t understand this desire to “catch up”. I am pretty sure, almost 100%, that I will never “catch up” with Sergei Brin. That doesn’t bother me. Does it bother you? As for “pet politicians” - I posted evidence before, on this board, that shows that “buying politicians” is basically a myth, and past a certain minimum, putting more money into a political campaign leads to very diminishing returns. Do you have any evidence otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/24 "2011-12-25T22:48:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I have yet to see any evidence that politicians are more “on the take” now than they have been in the past. SOPA. Nearly everyone in the country is against it. And yet, if it would have come to a vote, it would have passed. Never before have I seen a popular uprising have such little effect. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/25 "2011-12-25T22:52:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > SOPA. Nearly everyone in the country is against it. And yet, if it would have come to a vote, it would have passed. Never before have I seen a popular uprising have such little effect. I very much doubt that “nearly everyone in the country is against it”. I would think that 70-80% of the voters never heard of SOPA and of the 20-30% that did maybe 60% would be against. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/26 "2011-12-25T22:59:53Z")
If my bank is in favor of a pending law, I am frequently opposed. If Comcast favors something, I am almost certainly opposed. If they _bot_h favor something, it is the work of Satan. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/27 "2011-12-25T23:03:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t understand this desire to “catch up”. I am pretty sure, almost 100%, that I will never “catch up” with Sergei Brin. That doesn’t bother me. Does it bother you? > > As for “pet politicians” - I posted evidence before, on this board, that shows that “buying politicians” is basically a myth, and past a certain minimum, putting more money into a political campaign leads to very diminishing returns. Do you have any evidence otherwise? Terr, I may just be talking out of my ass here, and I do think you are probably right in what you said, but the real problem isn’t direct monetary contributions to “buy” politicians. It’s the fact that very wealthy corporations and individuals can funnel their money into groups, PACs, etc., that will get politicians to sign pledges, and which will run very negative or positive ads about candidates who they support, etc. Wealthy individuals can also influence media both monetarily and socially. These are things that only the wealthy can afford, and if the wealth keeps on heading upwards, then more and more political power will be concentrated with the wealthy. I agree that political graft is not really the problem. It’s all the other fringe stuff that’s really hard to measure and quantify that goes into politics that make the upward transfer of wealth _possibly_ deleterious to society. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/28 "2011-12-26T00:04:04Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Terr, I may just be talking out of my ass here, and I do think you are probably right in what you said, but the real problem isn’t direct monetary contributions to “buy” politicians. It’s the fact that very wealthy corporations and individuals can funnel their money into groups, PACs, etc., that will get politicians to sign pledges, and which will run very negative or positive ads about candidates who they support, etc. Wealthy individuals can also influence media both monetarily and socially. These are things that only the wealthy can afford, and if the wealth keeps on heading upwards, then more and more political power will be concentrated with the wealthy. It’s called “free speech”. Once you allow for it, it is natural that those with money have time and inclination to speak and be heard while the less wealthy are busy at their job and less interested in speaking. > [@](#): > > I agree that political graft is not really the problem. It’s all the other fringe stuff that’s really hard to measure and quantify that goes into politics that make the upward transfer of wealth _possibly_ deleterious to society. Historically (over the last few thousand years that recorded history exists) I see wealth evening out more and more. I don’t see the current societies breaking this trend. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/29 "2011-12-26T00:36:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > SOPA. Nearly everyone in the country is against it. And yet, if it would have come to a vote, it would have passed. Never before have I seen a popular uprising have such little effect. Your “evidence” is what you think about a proposed bill that hasn’t passed yet? Well, I’m [del]over[/del]underwhelmed. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/30 "2011-12-26T00:40:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The other “debate” is whether the disparity is a problem. Just the fact of the disparity isn’t. If I am comfortable financially, it really doesn’t matter to me that that guy over there has become fabulously wealthy. Yes it can bother me in at least 2 ways. Did he “earn” it or did he “steal” it so to speak. If its more like the latter thats going to bother me just on principle even if it actually doesnt impact me in any way. And then, how does his wealth impact me? Lets say we take all the really rich peoples money and give it to everyone else. If that just means your average joe ends up with a small amount of extra money in his pocket then from a practical point its no big deal. But what if it means a large increase in the average joe’s annual income? Then it is a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/31 "2011-12-26T01:12:28Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Yes it can bother me in at least 2 ways. Did he “earn” it or did he “steal” it so to speak. If its more like the latter thats going to bother me just on principle even if it actually doesnt impact me in any way. > > And then, how does his wealth impact me? Lets say we take all the really rich peoples money and give it to everyone else. If that just means your average joe ends up with a small amount of extra money in his pocket then from a practical point its no big deal. But what if it means a large increase in the average joe’s annual income? Then it is a big deal. Did he “steal” it so to speak? I’ll have to issue you a citation for violating the weasel word act. Go directly to debate jail. Do not collect 200 debate points. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/32 "2011-12-26T03:07:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’s not. The OP is asking if it’s true that the poor are getting poorer. The rich could be 1,000x richer than they are now, and that would not necessarily mean that the poor were poorer. Your gripe is another matter, unrelated to the question asked by the OP since economics is not a zero sum game. > > Not addressing the rest of your editorial, since this is GQ. Right, economics is said not to be a zero sum game, but money = power and power is indeed a zero sum game. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/33 "2011-12-26T04:24:24Z")
I think the OP is engaging in framing the issue. The poor whoever they are are may or may not be getting poorer, whatever that means. We’re talking very movable goalposts here! But the middle class is definitely getting squeezed. Wages are stagnant, and have been for decades. Meanwhile the one percenters are making out like gangbusters. Middle class people are losing their ability to fund their children’s college educations, they work longer hours, those that are employed, and they have less to show for it in terms of substantive improvements in their lives. Sucks to be us, but hey, as long as we are dumb enough to get distracted by whether or not the “poor” are “getting poorer” they’ll keep sticking it to us, bless their hearts. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/34 "2011-12-26T05:50:18Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Side note: > > The video links to _an_ economist, not _The Economist_ magazine. Which I love and read continuously, but they certainly have a ‘national wealth is the greatest good and best cure all for social ills’ golden bullet mentality that is strikingly two dimensional for such a globally interested magazine. (Sorry, completely irrelevant tangent to the topic at hand) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/35 "2011-12-26T06:37:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t understand this desire to “catch up”. I am pretty sure, almost 100%, that I will never “catch up” with Sergei Brin. That doesn’t bother me. Does it bother you? > > As for “pet politicians” - I posted evidence before, on this board, that shows that “buying politicians” is basically a myth, and past a certain minimum, putting more money into a political campaign leads to very diminishing returns. Do you have any evidence otherwise? But you will fall further behind. Power is zero-sum, as someone said upthread. Again, if you’re OK with being priced out of power and opportunity, & the same for your children, and your grandchildren becoming peons (those who are kept in someone else’s employ by debt), just keep on with it, & tell yourself the new model smartphone is enough. And when you’re a kid, it looks like enough. I’m too old for that crap. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/36 "2011-12-26T06:41:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > But you will fall further behind. Power is zero-sum, as someone said upthread. “Power” may be, but I never wanted “power”. Wealth isn’t, and I have enough without trying to play “catch up” with Brin. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/37 "2011-12-26T09:20:49Z")
> [@Danger\_Man](#): > > From the pespective of a Norwegian, I am pretty shocked at the conditions of the poor in the US. Your country is so rich, but if you get sick, lose your job or make some mistakes, you often end up with no realistic chance of getting back on track. I’m not sure that’s true. I haven’t looked into that specific question, but I do know that something like 90% of people who end up homeless are no longer homeless 2 weeks later. And I do know that there are no particular restrictions to emergency care and a large number of free clinics. That’s a bit half-assed, but in practical reality I suspect that you wouldn’t see a large difference between the US and Norway in terms of general health or wealth distribution if you removed the American issue with obesity and our high rate of immigration of the poor (which isn’t an issue, but it does distort our figures significantly). It’s political suicide to have people dying in the streets out of neglect. And it’s a good sob-story to say that you’ve been ruined for life by bills you can’t afford. Politicians are aware of this, and they put in measures to fix it regardless of anything. In the US, they just had to be more sneaky and round-about with their implementation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/38 "2011-12-26T15:20:20Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > … It’s political suicide to have people dying in the streets out of neglect… I doubt that will ever be a problem, most local government bodies have strict regulations on appropriate venues for bucket-kicking, ringing down the curtain and joining the Choir Invisible. America’s many gated communities, for instance, are uniformly concerned that the tone and atmosphere remain unsullied by wandering pre-corpses, absently meandering about as they await the cold embrace of the Last Fuck. Its a pity that so many of them die in a state of general ill-health as to make their various organs such poor sources for transplant, an excellent opportunity is lost for the sharp-eyed entrepreneur. Worse still, local regulations often insist that all such shucked-off mortal coils be embalmed, thus degrading their value as compost. Perhaps Mr Vonnegut was on to something with his notion of public ethical suicide parlors. Often, what is intended as sarcasm proves to be prophecy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/39 "2011-12-26T15:23:24Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > Right, economics is said not to be a zero sum game, but money = power and power is indeed a zero sum game. No, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/40 "2011-12-26T15:23:43Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > The problem is that most of the very rich can no longer readily explain why they deserve their money. Why should they have to explain why they deserve their money? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343.md?page=3)