# Economist - "Claims that US 'poor are getting poorer' is largely a myth" - Is he correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343 "2011-12-25T06:07:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/61 "2011-12-28T16:36:21Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I’m guessing that America is the richest, most powerful nation in human history. I will go way out on a limb and guess that Norway is not. Yet, despite this disparity in wealth, Norway manages to take care of its citizens rather well, and we do not. [/QUOTE] It’s easier to do well for your people when you are small and when you have huge oil reserves. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. > [@](#): > > You offer an intriguing explanation, its about population size. Well, where does this mechanism apply, and at what ratio? Germany has many more citizens than Norway, and does pretty much the same. So the population disparity doesn’t enter into it in those instances. At what point does it kick in, then? If Germany has fifty times the population of Norway, and we have seventy, then the magic ratio must be somewhere between fifty and seventy, yes? Is it fifty-three? Sixty-four? Yet Norway’s average standard of living is higher than Germany’s (the US’s is higher than Germany too, [according](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index) to this). This is, again, probably due to the fact that there are cities in Germany nearly as large as the entire population of Norway…so I’d say that population size (and that oil stuff of course) DOES factor in. Is it the only factor? No…there are others. But surly you see that trying to compare the average standard of living for 5 million people is going to be a bit skewed when trying to compare it to a country of 40 million…or 100 million…or 400 million. No? > [@](#): > > Or is it simply that Norway has decided to do so, and we have not? 😛 I suppose it could be that, if you want to really wave your hands around, close one eye and just go with those preconceptions. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/62 "2011-12-28T16:47:35Z")
Its true, I have any number of biases, and am grateful for the opportunity to bask in the light of your impartial and utterly unbiased intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/63 "2011-12-28T16:49:17Z")
Always happy to be of service to you, 'luci. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/64 "2011-12-28T16:53:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m guessing that America is the richest, most powerful nation in human history. I will go way out on a limb and guess that Norway is not. Yet, despite this disparity in wealth, Norway manages to take care of its citizens rather well, and we do not. > > You offer an intriguing explanation, its about population size. Well, where does this mechanism apply, and at what ratio? Germany has many more citizens than Norway, and does pretty much the same. So the population disparity doesn’t enter into it in those instances. At what point does it kick in, then? If Germany has fifty times the population of Norway, and we have seventy, then the magic ratio must be somewhere between fifty and seventy, yes? Is it fifty-three? Sixty-four? > > Or is it simply that Norway has decided to do so, and we have not? Small country, mucho oil\*. Would you like to combine a conservative and a liberal idea to level the playing field: Drill, baby, drill + Universal Health Care? \*From wikipedia: Norway has obtained one of the highest standards of living in the world in part by having a large amount of natural resources compared to the size of the population. In 2011, 28% of state revenues were generated from the petroleum industry. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/65 "2011-12-28T17:00:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Small country, mucho oil\*. Would you like to combine a conservative and a liberal idea to level the playing field: Drill, baby, drill + Universal Health Care? > > \*From wikipedia: Norway has obtained one of the highest standards of living in the world in part by having a large amount of natural resources compared to the size of the population. In 2011, 28% of state revenues were generated from the petroleum industry. Then why does Alaska not have the best health care in the world? > [@](#): > > Revenue from oil and gas production is expected to provide over 90% of the state’s unrestricted revenue through FY 2016. [http://www.revenue.state.ak.us/Press%20Releases/11-012%20Fall%202011%20RSB%2012-15-2011%20Final.pdf](http://www.revenue.state.ak.us/Press%20Releases/11-012%20Fall%202011%20RSB%2012-15-2011%20Final.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/66 "2011-12-28T17:21:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Small country, mucho oil\*. Would you like to combine a conservative and a liberal idea to level the playing field: Drill, baby, drill + Universal Health Care?.. Dear Diary: Today, I found out that \*\*John Mace \*\*is a socialist. There will be no further entries, I must get my affairs in order, as the End Times are upon us… ---
**Author:** ![Danger\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6de8d8/32.png) [@Danger\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/67 "2011-12-28T20:31:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Small country, mucho oil\*. Would you like to combine a conservative and a liberal idea to level the playing field: Drill, baby, drill + Universal Health Care? > > \*From wikipedia: Norway has obtained one of the highest standards of living in the world in part by having a large amount of natural resources compared to the size of the population. In 2011, 28% of state revenues were generated from the petroleum industry. Sweden has pretty much the same standard of living, but no oil. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/68 "2011-12-28T20:35:04Z")
They have meatballs though. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/69 "2011-12-28T20:42:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then why does Alaska not have the best health care in the world?[http://www.revenue.state.ak.us/Press%20Releases/11-012%20Fall%202011%20RSB%2012-15-2011%20Final.pdf](http://www.revenue.state.ak.us/Press%20Releases/11-012%20Fall%202011%20RSB%2012-15-2011%20Final.pdf) Uhm, because the good folks of Alaska have not chosen to use the revenues that way? Perhaps they think it’s better to give cash to the residents and reduce their taxes so they can decide what to do with it rather than having the government decide for them. What a concept! [Alaskan Permanent Fund.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska#Permanent_Fund) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/70 "2011-12-28T20:44:01Z")
And they don’t have meatballs in Alaska, so that has got to factor in as well. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/71 "2011-12-28T20:47:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > They have meatballs though. > > -XT Also furniture. Of a sort. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/72 "2011-12-28T21:57:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Uhm, because the good folks of Alaska have not chosen to use the revenues that way? > > Perhaps they think it’s better to give cash to the residents and reduce their taxes so they can decide what to do with it rather than having the government decide for them. What a concept! > > [Alaskan Permanent Fund.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska#Permanent_Fund) So the percentage of oil revenues are not an accurate indicator of standard of living, especially with regard to health care. I’m glad you cleared that up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/73 "2011-12-28T22:03:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So the percentage of oil revenues are not an accurate indicator of standard of living, especially with regard to health care. Who said it was? It can be, but doesn’t need to be. > [@](#): > > I’m glad you cleared that up. What thing that no one is claiming are you going to clear up next? No wait, surprise me! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/74 "2011-12-28T22:05:29Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] So the percentage of oil revenues are not an accurate indicator of standard of living, especially with regard to health care. I’m glad you cleared that up. [/QUOTE] I don’t believe that’s what he was getting at there…so I’m uncertain how this has cleared anything up. The percentage of oil revenue coupled with a relatively low population has given Norway a high standard of living. The folks in Norway have chosen to spend that revenue on things like health care. Q.E.D. the oil revenue and relatively low population have a direct impact on their standard of living. Your apples to oranges comparison about Alaska merely shows that the folks in Alaska, who also get to decide things democratically, don’t equate high levels of state run health care with standard of living, i.e. they have chosen to put the money they get from their own oil resource back in their own pockets instead of having the state figure out where it’s best to spend the money. Different strokes for different folks. The moral of this story is that Alaska isn’t Norway, and that neither place makes really good meatballs. Glad we could clear all that up! -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/75 "2011-12-28T22:11:57Z")
Alaskans have voted with their wallets. They prefer meth to UHC. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/76 "2011-12-28T22:17:15Z")
It’s all the whale blubber and polar bear meat. Not only does it make shitty meatballs (you don’t even want to know about the sauce!), but it makes meth look like a good source to dull the pain. I hear it’s really cold in Alaska, but that might just be a rumor. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/77 "2011-12-28T22:21:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I hear it’s really cold in Alaska, but that might just be a rumor. It’s just a theory, and there’s no scientific consensus about that. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/78 "2011-12-29T12:26:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What they ought to tell you instead is it’s an apples to oranges comparison. Were I to guess, I’d say there are more people in the average American state than live in Norway. You are trying to compare the average standard of living in a country composed of hundreds of millions to a country of less than 6 million, and you think this is a meaningful comparison. To put this in another perspective, there are more ‘rich’ people (not SUPER rich…just rich) in the US than in the entire population of Norway. And there are more ‘poor’ people in the US than the entire population of Norway as well. So, it’s pretty amazing that we are even close wrt average standard of living since it’s such a lopsided comparison, no? A better comparison would be to compare the US to the entire EU. I haven’t seen such a comparison, but at a guess I’d say we’d come out on top in such a comparison. > > As for leaving…well, why would you want too? Is this a great country or what?!? 😛 > > -XT Do you seriously believe that the standard of living in the United States would go up it we became the Disunited States, divided into ten or more countries? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/79 "2011-12-29T14:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=New Deal Democrat] Do you seriously believe that the standard of living in the United States would go up it we became the Disunited States, divided into ten or more countries? [/QUOTE] Do you seriously believe that not all decaffeinated beverages today are just as taste as the real thing?? :eek: (IOW…Brrrrrr?) -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343/80 "2011-12-29T14:59:15Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Do you seriously believe that the standard of living in the United States would go up it we became the Disunited States, divided into ten or more countries? Why would you think that he was implying it would? What is the average standard of living in Europe? Some states might have their SOL go up and some down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-claims-that-us-poor-are-getting-poorer-is-largely-a-myth-is-he-correct/607343.md?page=5)