# Economist Debate: Is TSA worth the cost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377 "2012-03-31T12:55:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/21 "2012-04-01T23:02:25Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > It’s lazy thinking to assume that the ALL time has a direct monetary cost. As if everyone would be far more productive if the TSA wasn’t wasting their time. That’s just your mistaken impression. We measure these kinds of things in dollars. If you are offered overtime pay at $15 an hour, and you go to the beach for the day, then we know that you valued the beach more than you valued the next $120. It’s just a measure, not a statement that people are always being productive. > [@](#): > > Most people would just waste their time doing something else. It’s not wasting time to them: they value their time and we can express that in dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/22 "2012-04-01T23:18:38Z")
I hate security theater as much as the next guy, but there is is a serious flaw in trying to calculate the economic cost of waiting in line. Sometimes the line is 20 minutes, sometimes it is ten minutes. And sometimes it is 30 minutes. I don’t know in advance how long the line is going to be. I get to the airport at the same time regardless of the wait time. If the line is short, I spend more time waiting at the gate. If the line is long, I have a short wait at the gait. I’m wasting the same amount of time even if the line is two minutes every time. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/23 "2012-04-01T23:23:35Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I hate security theater as much as the next guy, but there is is a serious flaw in trying to calculate the economic cost of waiting in line. Sometimes the line is 20 minutes, sometimes it is ten minutes. And sometimes it is 30 minutes. I don’t know in advance how long the line is going to be. I get to the airport at the same time regardless of the wait time. If the line is short, I spend more time waiting at the gate. If the line is long, I have a short wait at the gait. I’m wasting the same amount of time even if the line is two minutes every time. Did you ever happen to notice, while you’re standing there literally staring at the wall waiting for your flight, that others do things like read, talk on the phone, go to a restaurant, shop at a bookstore…? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/24 "2012-04-01T23:27:51Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Did you ever happen to notice, while you’re standing there literally staring at the wall waiting for your flight, that others do things like read, talk on the phone, go to a restaurant, shop at a bookstore…? Sure, but for the most part that doesn’t translate into $10 billion. I’m in favor of a lot less of the stuff that slows things down and has marginal utility. I should be able to leave my shoes on, for example. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/25 "2012-04-01T23:31:38Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Sure, but for the most part that doesn’t translate into $10 billion. Why not? People value time. One of the ways we express value is dollars. What is wrong with the figure? ---
**Author:** ![krunen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@krunen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krunen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/26 "2012-04-01T23:54:47Z")
We need some way to see if investments we do actually pay off, and we have set up guidelines for how to do so. When we decide where to put a new highway, we must weigh the benefit of quicker transport against construction costs and disruption during building works. Without these kinds of analyses, we are just fumbling in the dark. Not weighing pros and cons is a bad way to run a business, a family, or a country. Airport security is no different. My father was a safety director at a maritime shipping company. He tells of how every shipping company in the world are required to run lifeboat exercises regularly. But after a few years statistics showed that more people died in exercises than were saved in emergencies! But, actually changing the requirements in international regulations are extremely difficult, and a lot of people still die needlessly because of this, although it is changing now. Regulations have consequences, and they should always be measured for efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/27 "2012-04-02T00:31:38Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Why not? People value time. One of the ways we express value is dollars. What is wrong with the figure? Because waiting around the airport is a waste of time no matter what you’re doing. It’s part of the flying experience now and it was before the TSA. I’m not wasting any more time per flight now than I was pre 9/11. get rid of TSA entirely, and you won’t find that $10billion. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/28 "2012-04-02T00:33:45Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Pulling all security, maybe. I would wager a rather large sum of money that pulling some of the more ridiculous security-theater policies of recent years (like the 3-oz liquid rule, or the no-shoes thing) will absolutely not lead to an increase in attacks. All the stupid rules were added in direct response to credible threats. Nonetheless, getting rid of this rule wouldn’t save a bunch of money, would it? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/29 "2012-04-02T00:41:10Z")
> [@krunen](#): > > He only talks about the extra security since 9/11, and the extra number of people driving themselves to death to avoid the hassle. > > More people have died in unnecessary car accidents since 9/11 than died in the twin towers that day. Do you think this is a meaningless statistic? > > Security precautions should regularly be judged on cost/benefit by a disinterested part. I have not seen any interest in cooperating with such an analysis, and that puts the whole system in doubt. Unnecessary due to 9/11, or unnecessary in general? The government isn’t ignoring accidents, of course. Air bags and other safety regulations address them. And cars are safer than ever. When I was a kid the news always reported the vast number of car deaths over the Memorial Day weekend, so much so that Mad had a parody of the Jerry Lewis telethon with the NHSA on the air pushing for more deaths to meet their estimate. See that lately? So it is a meaningless statistic. Now, supposedly mandating airbags might lead to more accidents due to people feeling safer and taking more risks. But cutting regulations on air bags wouldn’t make people have more accidents - but cutting inspections might very well cause more incidents? Do you deny this? Therefore, normal cost-benefit analyses which don’t cover this link are not appropriate here. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/30 "2012-04-02T00:44:19Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > get rid of TSA entirely, and you won’t find that $10billion. What have I said that makes you suppose there was ten billion dollar bills being shredded? If you want to go to the beach rather than earn another $120 dollars working, then we know you valued the trip to the beach at least as much as $120. If you are then stuck in traffic, and never make it to the beach, you lost the equivalent of at least $120. I don’t understand what you disagree with in this. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/31 "2012-04-02T00:48:13Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > What have I said that makes you suppose there was ten billion dollar bills being shredded? If you want to go to the beach rather than earn another $120 dollars working, then we know you valued the trip to the beach at least as much as $120. If you are then stuck in traffic, and never make it to the beach, you lost the equivalent of at least $120. I don’t understand what you disagree with in this. There isn’t $10 billion difference between sitting at the Gate for a few more minutes and waiting a few minutes in the TSA line. There are a lot of reasons to criticize the TSA, but trying to put a price tag on the amount of time in line is junk science at best. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/32 "2012-04-02T00:57:47Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Because waiting around the airport is a waste of time no matter what you’re doing. It’s part of the flying experience now and it was before the TSA. I’m not wasting any more time per flight now than I was pre 9/11. get rid of TSA entirely, and you won’t find that $10billion. I’m always early, and haven’t needed to go any earlier since 9/11. In any case, I see lots of people doing work at the airport. Now that we carry laptops around, all is not lost. And frequent fliers have the ability to get pre-cleared and save time, which makes sense. And much better than skipping necessary screening. ---
**Author:** ![krunen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@krunen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krunen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/33 "2012-04-02T01:04:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Unnecessary due to 9/11, or unnecessary in general? The government isn’t ignoring accidents, of course. Air bags and other safety regulations address them. And cars are safer than ever. When I was a kid the news always reported the vast number of car deaths over the Memorial Day weekend, so much so that Mad had a parody of the Jerry Lewis telethon with the NHSA on the air pushing for more deaths to meet their estimate. See that lately? So it is a meaningless statistic. Unnecessary in that they died as a consequence of a change in policy and their deaths are a disbenefit of that policy, and should be used in calculating the policy’s overall efficiency. > [@](#): > > Now, supposedly mandating airbags might lead to more accidents due to people feeling safer and taking more risks. But cutting regulations on air bags wouldn’t make people have more accidents - but cutting inspections might very well cause more incidents? Do you deny this? Therefore, normal cost-benefit analyses which don’t cover this link are not appropriate here. Of course you have to analyse the action of implementing the regulations and altering them separately. The question “What are the benefits of the new security policy?” is different from “What can we do to reduce the disbenefit of this policy”. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/34 "2012-04-02T01:05:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m always early, and haven’t needed to go any earlier since 9/11. In any case, I see lots of people doing work at the airport. Now that we carry laptops around, all is not lost. And frequent fliers have the ability to get pre-cleared and save time, which makes sense. And much better than skipping necessary screening. Agreed. I’m in the air right now, but not being terribly productive. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/35 "2012-04-02T01:11:37Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > There isn’t $10 billion difference between sitting at the Gate for a few more minutes and waiting a few minutes in the TSA line. Why not? Just cuz you don’t like to think waiting in line is a cost? ---
**Author:** ![krunen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@krunen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krunen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/36 "2012-04-02T01:13:32Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > There isn’t $10 billion difference between sitting at the Gate for a few more minutes and waiting a few minutes in the TSA line. There are a lot of reasons to criticize the TSA, but trying to put a price tag on the amount of time in line is junk science at best. Are you saying that the measurements that have been done by presumably competent people by examining rules and interviewing people are worthless? That as you personally don’t waste more time now than before, no one else does either? I can understand a challenge in degree, and that you may want to ask Bruce Schneier where he gets these numbers, but are you instead challenging the whole concept of measuring the extra wasted time? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/37 "2012-04-02T03:37:22Z")
> [@krunen](#): > > Are you saying that the measurements that have been done by presumably competent people by examining rules and interviewing people are worthless? That as you personally don’t waste more time now than before, no one else does either? > > I can understand a challenge in degree, and that you may want to ask Bruce Schneier where he gets these numbers, but are you instead challenging the whole concept of measuring the extra wasted time? Yes, any attempt to put an actual dollar figure to the concept ( “waiting in line sucks”) is meaningless, ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/38 "2012-04-02T04:01:54Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I think you are making an incorrect assumption that ALL business travel is necessary. More importantly, if they were truly losing money flying during business hours, why wouldn’t don’t you see more business people flying during non-business hours? Either way, I suppose it’s not worth getting worked up over, so feel free to ignore the complaint. :rolleyes: Just a wild ass guess here, you don’t travel on business do you? If your boss came to you and said: Hey **brickbacon** I want you to travel transcontinental and since I don’t want you to lose any work time, I want you to work a full day, then take the redeye to the other coast, work a full day there, fly home that night, and be back here the following morning. You don’t mind traveling on your own time do you?\* Would your answer be: A) Sure no problem or B) Are you out of your ever loving mind? If you answered A) what would you say after say 15 years of that shit doing it 26 weeks or so out of the year? \*Been there done that. Coming home to LA from NY would be a 22-23 hour long day assuming there were no issues with the flight. Going to the East Coast after a full day’s work and the then working the following day is about a 39 hour day. Not fun., sometimes necessary, but not something that any sane business person would plan. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/39 "2012-04-02T05:40:18Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Yes, any attempt to put an actual dollar figure to the concept ( “waiting in line sucks”) is meaningless, I guess you’d never expect anyone to [actually pay to avoid waiting in a line, then](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/04/paying-to-skip-the-line-a-bad-example-for-kids-.html). ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377/40 "2012-04-02T14:25:32Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I guess you’d never expect anyone to [actually pay to avoid waiting in a line, then](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/04/paying-to-skip-the-line-a-bad-example-for-kids-.html). Call me when they collect anywhere near $10 billion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economist-debate-is-tsa-worth-the-cost/617377.md?page=3)