# Economists are generally conservative, aren't they? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116 "2008-03-28T23:25:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![shigyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@shigyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shigyu)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/1 "2008-03-28T23:25:15Z")
If so, why don’t more people believe in economic conservatism? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/2 "2008-03-28T23:29:54Z")
[QUOTE=shigyu] If so, why don’t more people believe in economic conservatism? [/QUOTE] By more people, do you mean “more economists”, or “more people who are not economists”? Because if it’s the latter, I’d have to ask you why you think that people look to economists as guides for the way to think about things. ---
**Author:** ![shigyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@shigyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shigyu)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/3 "2008-03-28T23:36:36Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] By more people, do you mean “more economists”, or “more people who are not economists”? Because if it’s the latter, I’d have to ask you why you think that people look to economists as guides for the way to think about things. [/QUOTE] I don’t think that, and consequently I’m asking why they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/4 "2008-03-28T23:41:34Z")
[QUOTE=shigyu] I don’t think that, and consequently I’m asking why they don’t. [/QUOTE] Well, I can answer for myself, and in my case it’s because I don’t care enough about economics to try to be even vaguely informed about most formal economic theory, much less actual economists’ opinions on it. Of course, I don’t have strong economic inclinations either liberally or consrvatively, so I might not be in the sample set you’re talking about. For others, I think in some case they draw their opinions on such things from persons they already know about and respect the opinions of, such as parents, politicians, and talk radio hosts. I think that the intersection between the set of those sorts of people and the set of professional economists is relatively small. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/5 "2008-03-28T23:48:35Z")
What makes you think economists are generally conservative? There are still Keynesians, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/6 "2008-03-28T23:55:07Z")
Economists aren’t “generally conservative.” They may be generally boring, but that doesn’t mean they are conservative. John Maynard Keynes was certainly one of the most influential economists in modern times, and his economic views were centered around the state intervening in the economy to produce certain results, especially employment and economic growth. He is usually considered to be the father of macroeconomics. His views of economics were the basis of FDR’s New Deal, and even Richard Nixon famously said, “We are all Keynsians now.” More recently, a Nobel prize winning economist, Joseph Stiglitz, came up with an estimate that the total economic costs of the Iraq war will be $3 trillion. He is among a school of economists who criticize the notion of Adam Smith’s “invisible hand,” in which markets can be trusted to find maximum efficiency. That is considerably more liberal than the economists you’re probably thinking of. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/7 "2008-03-29T00:31:04Z")
Yeah, economic schools of thought range from extreme deregulation to extreme regulation. There are economists of all bent. Liberal/conservative also aren’t really terms that necessarily carry with them an economic position. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/8 "2008-03-29T00:41:32Z")
[QUOTE=shigyu] If so, why don’t more people believe in economic conservatism? [/QUOTE] Speaking only for myself, I don’t believe in economists. In fact, in many some current economic controversies, if a majority of economists support one side that often pushes me towards the other. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/9 "2008-03-29T00:53:15Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Speaking only for myself, I don’t believe in economists. In fact, in many some current economic controversies, if a majority of economists support one side that often pushes me towards the other. [/QUOTE] I admit I don’t understand this at all. Do you apply the same approach to physicists, biologists, or psychologists? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/10 "2008-03-29T01:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] I admit I don’t understand this at all. Do you apply the same approach to physicists, biologists, or psychologists? [/QUOTE] Economists themselves, in my understanding, would largely agree that their foundation of knowledge is still pretty scant. Microeconomics, they’ll agree is decent at finding something generally trustworthy, but macroeconomics is pretty “theory of the day.” One of the main issues is that if someone was able to come up with a working theory of how money works, some enterprising individual will figure out a way to take advantage of it and proceed to break it–and thereby make some new macroeconomic reality for the world. Take for instance the idea that the Federal Reserve can help to fight market bubbles by increasing interest rates, or encourage the economy by lowering them. Well, they lowered them, and someone came up with the idea of housing loans which floated with the interest rate instead of being stuck with the current rate… ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/11 "2008-03-29T03:51:12Z")
[QUOTE=shigyu] If so, why don’t more people believe in economic conservatism? [/QUOTE] My B-school economics teacher was more libertarian than anything else. I’m not sure if you can apply the left/right wing political label to economists so easily. I mean abortion, gay rights, gun control and whatnot don’t really have much to do directly with economics. The big debate with economists seems to be regarding how much government intervention in the national economy is appropriate in response to a particular crisis. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/12 "2008-03-29T04:07:38Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] I admit I don’t understand this at all. Do you apply the same approach to physicists, biologists, or psychologists? [/QUOTE] I have no qualms about physicists, biologists, or psychologists, as long as they stick to physics, biology, or psychology, respectively. For that matter, I have no gripe with economists who stick to economics. Problems emerge when economists take stances on issues outside of economics. For instance, it’s fine for economists to tell us that tariffs will have this effect or that effect. But it’s not their job to tell us whether tariffs are good or bad. The question of whether we should have tariffs also involves questions of freedom, dignity, and the nature of our society. The problem with economists is they’re prone to saying things like ‘tariffs are harmful’ when they really mean ‘tariffs have negative effects on the economy’. Economists give us purely economic answers of this sort. The purely economic answer is often the opposite of what the answer should be once we take human concerns into consideration. That’s why I often lean towards the opposite of whatever is the consensus among economists. ---
**Author:** ![shigyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@shigyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shigyu)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/13 "2008-03-29T04:14:07Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] My B-school economics teacher was more libertarian than anything else. I’m not sure if you can apply the left/right wing political label to economists so easily. I mean abortion, gay rights, gun control and whatnot don’t really have much to do directly with economics. [/QUOTE] I’m not talking about those things, just economic “free-market” conservatism, espoused by both political conservatives and political libertarians. > [@](#): > > The big debate with economists seems to be regarding how much government intervention in the national economy is appropriate in response to a particular crisis. That’s what this thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![shigyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@shigyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shigyu)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/14 "2008-03-29T04:15:13Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] The problem with economists is they’re prone to saying things like ‘tariffs are harmful’ when they really mean ‘tariffs have negative effects on the economy’. Economists give us purely economic answers of this sort. The purely economic answer is often the opposite of what the answer should be once we take human concerns into consideration. That’s why I often lean towards the opposite of whatever is the consensus among economists. [/QUOTE] But if the economy goes bad, isn’t everyone screwed? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/15 "2008-03-29T04:17:46Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] The problem with economists is they’re prone to saying things like ‘tariffs are harmful’ when they really mean ‘tariffs have negative effects on the economy’. Economists give us purely economic answers of this sort. The purely economic answer is often the opposite of what the answer should be once we take human concerns into consideration. That’s why I often lean towards the opposite of whatever is the consensus among economists. [/QUOTE] I’m having a little trouble seeing the logic here. Would you mind illustrating for any particular tariff how this worked out? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/16 "2008-03-29T14:10:43Z")
[QUOTE=shigyu] If so, why don’t more people believe in economic conservatism? [/QUOTE] I think one reason is that a lot of economics is counterintuitive, and people often don’t want to change views that they “know” are right (see any free-trade thread on the SDMB for examples of how even intelligent people can be entirely ignorant of economics). Comparative advantage and the gains from trade is one example. It’s easy for protectionists to gripe about “shipping American jobs overseas” - those are visible losses, and it’s easy to pick a heartrending story and trump it up as representative of everyone. It’s much harder for economists to argue that the gains from lower prices more than outweigh the loss of jobs. For the same reason, it’s easier to lobby for cap-and-trade than for a carbon tax, even though the latter can do the same thing more efficiently. Because, as everyone knows, limiting pollution is _good_, and taxes are _baaad_! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/17 "2008-03-29T14:29:55Z")
[QUOTE=shigyu] If so, why don’t more people believe in economic conservatism? [/QUOTE] What’s that? (I’m an academic economist, by the way.) > [@](#): > > _ITR champion_ > For instance, it’s fine for economists to tell us that tariffs will have this effect or that effect. But it’s not their job to tell us whether tariffs are good or bad. Yes and no. Part of economics (positive economics) is about what the effects are. IMHO, when talking about policy, economists should talk much more about these. But part of economics is normative economics - evaluating policy. With their economist’s hat - rather than their newspaper columnist’s or political player’s hats - economists talk about **if** this is the combination of social objectives that society has, then **this** policy is a good/ kind of ok/ poor way of pursuing it. In trade policy, for example, we say that tariffs are generally a bad (but by no means the worst) policy. That’s so if society is interested in the amount of stuff people like, how it’s distributed, or whether some sector of the economy is important for “non-economic” reasons. So as a lefty economist, I’m generally against tariffs because I understand their effects, the effects of alternative policies and how they stack up when evaluated against a variety of criteria, not because I’m a conservative. > [@](#): > > _shigyu_ > The big debate with economists seems to be regarding how much government intervention in the national economy is appropriate in response to a particular crisis. No. You may have that impression from reading about the latest crisis in the press, but there are lots of things economists are talking about amongst ourselves. The impression you get about economists from the press (including _The Economist_) is about as accurate as the impression you get about architecture from reading discussion about Princes Charles’ views on some building. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/18 "2008-03-29T14:37:54Z")
If someone can show me an economist who makes prior predictions about economics in the real world, with the same degree of accuracy as physicists do for shaped explosive charges, then I will start actually paying more attention to economists. Until then, I regard them as just another branch of astrology. That caveat extends to economists discussing the economy. Why I should listen to one on the subject of human rights, education, ecology, etc. remains unaddressed. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/19 "2008-03-29T15:05:18Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] If someone can show me an economist who makes prior predictions about economics in the real world, with the same degree of accuracy as physicists do for shaped explosive charges, then I will start actually paying more attention to economists. Until then, I regard them as just another branch of astrology. That caveat extends to economists discussing the economy. Why I should listen to one on the subject of human rights, education, ecology, etc. remains unaddressed. Tris [/QUOTE] I’m confused. Are you saying that a field is either as accurate as well understood physics, or it’s complete nonsense? There’s no middle ground? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116/20 "2008-03-29T15:23:58Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Yeah, economic schools of thought range from extreme deregulation to extreme regulation. There are economists of all bent. Liberal/conservative also aren’t really terms that necessarily carry with them an economic position. [/QUOTE] The first sentence I agree with. The second one…I think you can usually find a relationship or a correlation between their political view and their “economic position” whatever that may mean. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economists-are-generally-conservative-arent-they/443116.md?page=2)