# economy class seating my ass... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 20, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542 "2003-10-20T16:48:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/81 "2003-10-24T01:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by leenmi \* > Sailor, I just want to chime in with the “you are an ass” crowd. > > True, people are not “forced” to fly. Unless they have a need to go a few states over and don’t have the 20 some-odd hours to sit on the bus or the days it takes to take a train halfway across the country. > > Or should they drive that far? Hmmm? Oops, that can take a while, too. > > Guess they shouldn’t visit family. Or switch jobs if it’s business travel because, as you obviously know (you fucking ass), switching jobs is as simple as giving your notice and walking across the street. You might try making valid arguments rather than posting insults. Stating your wishes does not count as a valid argument. All your insults directed at me just show that you believe you are the center of the world and you believe you are entitled to have your needs satisfied. Let me explain something which may come as news to you: you are not the center of the world. You are not entitled to anything from me or others, including the airline. You are not entitled to _anything_ for free. If you want to fly then you pay the asking price. If you want a bigger seat then you pay what the airline asks for the bigger seat. That’s the way a free market works. You are not entitled to unilaterally impose your conditions on the airline. If I want your house then I have to pay you what you ask for it. I may need it more than you do but I still have no right to take it from you because it’s yours. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/82 "2003-10-24T13:54:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giraffe \* > \*\*I laughed at your post. Now that you’ve guilted me into posting to thank you for the joy you’ve brought me, I’ll also mention that I laughed even harder at **Jervoise** ’s post. Ha! Take that, Mr. Second Funniest! \*\* Be prepared … a taunting is about to take place. Ahem. I made you la-augh! I made you la-augh! I bet that 18-inch prehensile tongue was just flaaaaapping in the breeze, you were laughing so hard! ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/83 "2003-10-24T21:21:59Z")
\*:: awkward silence :: :: off in the distance, a coyote howls :: :: awkward silence ::\* ---
**Author:** ![Fuji\_Kitakyusho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Fuji\_Kitakyusho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji_Kitakyusho)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/84 "2003-10-25T15:00:28Z")
You get what you pay for. According to the contract I make when I purchase a ticket, I pay for a seat. I guess it was my own lack of foresight to assume that there would be sufficient space around it to actually sit in it. If I pay for a seat on a plane, but then have no right to space in front of it or above it, then what, exactly am I paying for? Carriage from point A to point B? If the airlines have to meet safety regulations which specify that every passenger must be seated during takeoff and landing, then the onus is on them to ensure that every passenger CAN be seated. Apparently, a combination of stuffed and sprawled is equivalent to seated according to the airline. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/85 "2003-10-26T10:15:09Z")
Can anyone tell me if USAirways have re-configured **their** economy section seats? I will be flying their Airbus A330-300 to Frankfurt and a Boeing 737-300 back from Frankfurt, and it sure would be nice to be able to strectch out a little. The USAirways website doesn’t give much info on this. I gotta say, that I’m glad to be normal-sized, but if I weren’t, I think I’d take offense if someone told me, “Well if you’re having **that** much trouble, buy a first class seat!”, but that’s just me. I scrimp and save for every penny I spend on my vacations and if I were a taller man, that Germany trip in 1st Class just “wouldn’t fly”, if y’all will permit me the small play on words! 😉 Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/86 "2003-10-26T11:34:11Z")
**Fuji Kitakyusho** , yes, you paid for a _standard economy_ seat on a plane. If that is not sufficient for you then you can buy something which satisfies your needs. It is nobody’s fault but yours if you are buying a product or service which does not satisfy your needs. The airlines offer what they feel satisfies the greatest number of people. If they felt that people wanted to pay more money in exchange for more space they would offer that but they have determined that people prefer to pay less. You may be the exception who is willing to pay more which is fine and dandy until the moment you want to impose that on the rest of the flying public who does not want to pay more. Face it, the rest of us are cheap and we are greedy and we do _not_ want to pay more so that _you_ can be comfortable. I am nearsighted and I have to pay for my own eyeglasess. When people who do not need eyeglasses start sharing the cost of paying for my eyeglasses, that will be the day I will consider chipping in to pay for a bigger seat for you. i also have delicate skin and can only wear the most expensive woollen socks and I think you should pay for that too. And I have the most delicate palate and would never think of eating anything less than the most expensive food. I also suffer from this condition which prevents me from getting sexually excited except with the most beautiful women. It is very frustrating as good looking hookers are very expensive but under the new scheme I expect everybody will chip in so that I may better deal with this shortcoming of mine. After all, we are all entitled to a gratifying sexual life. Are we not? ---
**Author:** ![bare](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bare/32/471_2.png) [@bare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bare)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/87 "2003-10-26T14:33:55Z")
I recall a couple threads not to long ago, in which overweight folks were castigated remorslessly for not purchasing two seats to handle their girth. What’s the difference between vertical and horizontal? If you need more room, buy it. Oh, wait, maybe it’s more acceptable to be tall rather than fat. Woe to us tall, fat people. ---
**Author:** ![Lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@Lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lola)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/88 "2003-10-26T15:19:32Z")
The seats sold by airlines are unsatisfactory. If you buy a pair of “eyeglasses” (what a quaint phrase) that turn out to be too small for your head, you’d be pissed off. I’m not huge (6 ft 2), but I find that air travel offers the biggest discrepancy between what is advertised and what is delivered that I know of. Yeah, I can buy more room, but should I have to? I’ve paid for a reasonable amount of comfort, surely; otherwise, what the hell am I paying for? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/89 "2003-10-26T15:50:04Z")
Lola, if you find the seats unsatisfactory then better not buy them. If I bought eyeglasses that were too small knowing what I am getting just to save money I could not blame anyone but myself. Discrepancy between advertised and delivered? How so? Can you cite specific cases of airlines advertising more space than they deliver? Because if you can prove that you probably have a good case against them. But somehow I think you are the one advertising what you cannot deliver. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I can buy more room, but should I have to? I’ve paid for a reasonable amount of comfort, surely; otherwise, what the hell am I paying for? You are paying for economy seat which is what you get. You have not paid for any comfort. If you want more comfort then yes, you need to pay more and go to business class. I do not know what is so hard to understand. Where do you get the notion that you are entitled to more space? I just do not get this sense of entitlement. You know full well what kind of seat you are getting. If you don’t like it then don’t buy it. Those seats serve the demand of the immense majority of travelers. We do not want to pay more so you can be comfortable. If you want to be comforatble then _you_ pay more. I am comfortable enough. When I buy a hot dog I pay for one hot dog. If you are still hungry and want another one then you pay for another one. You have greater needs then you pay for them, you do not expect me to pay for them. You want to pay for one hot dog, and eat two which means the rest of us have to pick up the tab. I just don’t get where you get that sense of entitlement. You are _not_ entitled to set the price at which others should sell things to you. You are entitled to nothing except to not buy products and services you do not like. ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/90 "2003-10-26T19:30:09Z")
Given today’s plane configurations, seat reclining should simply **NOT** be an option in coach. Period. Like **Giraffe** said: “if you recline your seat and in the process feel someone’s knees push into your back, odds are that their decrease in comfort is far greater than the comfort you gain from an extra 8 degrees of recline.” I couldn’t agree more. And don’t get me started with people hogging in the cabin more stuff than they actually checked in. Thankfully, the airlines seem to have **finally** put an end to THAT practice. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/91 "2003-10-27T10:14:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kayeby \* > \*\*then he gets disappointed because he’s missed out on the food. 😛 \*\* Mmmmm … airline food. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/92 "2003-10-27T10:29:27Z")
I’m a 6’1" 210 corn-fed white boy. If I don’t book my flight a looong time in advance, I get stuck in the middle seat. For me, this is torture. No leg room, no elbow room, and I neeeeed to get up to stretch my legs and go the bathroom every now and then. And I cannot sit comfortably without crossing my legs. And I cannot afford 1st class. Yet. I’ve always seen the trays mounted on the back of seat, but I’ve never seen them be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@Lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lola)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/93 "2003-10-27T10:58:20Z")
Sailor, I’m not talking about claims involving specific numbers, more about images of supremely comfortable passengers which bear no relation to reality. And no, I don’t necessarily “know” what seat I’ll be getting; airlines differ a lot. It’s not so much a sense of entitlement; I simply don’t appreciate being treated like crap by airlines. My wife is 5ft2, for pity’s sake, and even SHE is half crippled after a flight from Asia to the UK. To constantly harp on about “expecting others to pick up the tab” is ingenuous (and boring): people simply want a fair deal for what they pay. A reasonable level of comfort is NOT too much to expect. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/94 "2003-10-27T12:08:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lola \* > Sailor, I’m not talking about claims involving specific numbers, more about images of supremely comfortable passengers which bear no relation to reality. And no, I don’t necessarily “know” what seat I’ll be getting; airlines differ a lot. Since space is a concern for you why don’t you ask the space allowance _before_ you buy a ticket? It is _your_ responsibility to make sure you are getting what you want. You sound like a spoiled child who would rather complain. > [@](#): > > It is not so much a sense of entitlement; I simply don’t appreciate being treated like crap by airlines. My wife is 5ft2, for pity’s sake, and even SHE is half crippled after a flight from Asia to the UK. If you are married I take it you are both adults. You must understand that flying cheaply means flying uncomfortably. Again: You want more space then just fucking pay for more space and quit bitching. > [@](#): > > To constantly harp on about “expecting others to pick up the tab” is ingenuous (and boring): people simply want a fair deal for what they pay. You are so stupid you do not understand that more space per seat means fewer seats per plane which in turn means higher price per seat. The rest of us do not fucking want to pay more. You do not get to define what is a “fair deal”. A fair deal is when both the customer and the airline freely enter into a contract. If you feel you did not get what you paid for go and sue the airline in court. The fact is that you don’t have a case because you go your money’s worth. You just want to pay economy and get business class. the world doesn’t work that way as any responsible and intelligent adult knows. You sound like a spoiled brat. > [@](#): > > A reasonable level of comfort is NOT too much to expect. You get a reasonable level of comfort for the price you paid. If you don’t like it then don’t buy it. Fly business class or stay home. Or start your own fucking airline. I am sure you can become very rich offering lower fares and bigger seats. ---
**Author:** ![Lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@Lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lola)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/95 "2003-10-27T12:15:28Z")
Oh Sailor, don’t get into a huff. I’m allowed to disagree with you, you know. And you say I’M childish? Dearie me. ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/96 "2003-10-27T15:45:31Z")
But being an adult means making unpleasant choices without complaining. The choice in this case: spending more than you want (either in money or time) for sufficient space, sucking up with insufficient space (which, since it’s _completely_ predictable, means no whining about it), or not making the trip. Remember that for most of humanity’s history, option three was the only one available. Now, inevitably, we hear the whinges from those required to travel for work: if it’s that much of a problem, change jobs. Again, that’s an unpleasant choice, which a grownup makes without whining. We have the luxury of options. Just because they’re bad options doesn’t mean it isn’t a luxury. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/97 "2003-10-27T18:02:15Z")
**Lola** , do you get mad at Burger King because the Whopper you get doesn’t look like the one on TV? ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/98 "2003-10-27T22:05:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **You are paying for economy seat which is what you get. You have not paid for any comfort.** This is the Pit, so I can call this for what it is. BULLSHIT! If economy passengers weren’t entitled to any comfort, the seats would be wooden benches, there would be no air conditioning, no flight attendants, no entertainment and you’d eat and drink whatever you brought yourself. Since that _isn’t_ the case, obviously you **have** paid for some level of comfort when purchasing an economy class seat. The problem is this: the passengers’ concept of comfort includes something that the airlines’ definition does not: space. Actually, that’s not true, because the airlines know that more space is a concern of passengers, which is why Jet Blue hinges their advertising on the “extra” space they offer, United has Economy Plus and American (I think) spent millions to brag when they took out one row of seats in coach and moved the rest of the seats 1.5" further apart, and British Airways inundates my favorite TV programs with their bragging about the seat that will go fully flat like a bed for its overnight transatlantic flights. They know that we want more space, they know that we’ll pay more for it in some cases, what they haven’t figured out is that a large number of travellers who cannot afford – or are not permitted – to travel in business or first class still think that there should be more space in coach and if that means a somewhat higher fare, we’ll still fly – because many of us have no choice, because it _is_ required for our jobs, or remains the only practical way to get to the places where we need to be. We’ll suck it up just like we do when they hike fares because of higher fuel costs or because the industry is failing as a whole (largely because those who don’t have to fly aren’t flying) or to pay for window dressing “security” measures or because the route we need to fly “isn’t competitive” because we still need to fly. But more than comfort, this is becoming an issue of safety, because people are developing deep vein thrombosis from being stuck in airplane seats with that weird curve that forces your head forward for no apparent reason, seats that are too close in pitch to allow people to stretch their legs – especially when the passenger in front reclines their seat – seats that are too narrow to allow people to comfortably move their legs from side to side and encourages leg crossing, and DVT can - and does - kill people. Couple the seating situation with the fact that passengers are encouraged _not_ to get up (and are _barred_ from doing so in some cases), are encouraged to remain further restrained while they’re in them, are not encouraged to remain well-hydrated (a recommendation that wouldn’t take nearly as long as that stupid bit about how to buckle the seat belt, something a 3 year old can figure out on their own) and you get arguments like this. No, we’re not _entitled_ to first class accomodations in coach. But humans aren’t luggage or cargo. We come in diffferent sizes and shapes, and if we don’t fit into a specific mold, it’s not as if we can leave some of ourselves at home. So above the ruckus of the arguments and debates, a very meaningful question is raised – should having more money, more luck (in terms of getting a first class reservation early, especially when some planes/airlines have only 4 first class seats) more frequent flier miles or a more fiscally lenient corporate policy entitle you to more of something so basic as an adequate portion of space in which to place your body? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by OxyMoron_ > **But being an adult means making unpleasant choices without complaining.** It also means recognizing that things aren’t always that simple. What **choice** does someone have when they are constrained by airline policy, corporate policy or simple lack of availability (see prior note about 4 first class seats on a plane)? Making a true choice requires first that there are true options and in many cases, there really aren’t options. What should people do then? ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/99 "2003-10-27T22:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Lola, if you find the seats unsatisfactory then better not buy them. > > If I bought eyeglasses that were too small knowing what I am getting just to save money I could not blame anyone but myself. > > Discrepancy between advertised and delivered? How so? Can you cite specific cases of airlines advertising more space than they deliver? Because if you can prove that you probably have a good case against them. But somehow I think you are the one advertising what you cannot deliver. You are paying for economy seat which is what you get. You have not paid for any comfort. If you want more comfort then yes, you need to pay more and go to business class. I do not know what is so hard to understand. Where do you get the notion that you are entitled to more space? I just do not get this sense of entitlement. You know full well what kind of seat you are getting. If you don’t like it then don’t buy it. Those seats serve the demand of the immense majority of travelers. We do not want to pay more so you can be comfortable. If you want to be comforatble then _you_ pay more. I am comfortable enough. > > When I buy a hot dog I pay for one hot dog. If you are still hungry and want another one then you pay for another one. You have greater needs then you pay for them, you do not expect me to pay for them. You want to pay for one hot dog, and eat two which means the rest of us have to pick up the tab. > > I just don’t get where you get that sense of entitlement. You are _not_ entitled to set the price at which others should sell things to you. You are entitled to nothing except to not buy products and services you do not like. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542/100 "2003-10-28T14:14:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TeaElle \* > \*\*So above the ruckus of the arguments and debates, a very meaningful question is raised – should having more money, more luck (in terms of getting a first class reservation early, especially when some planes/airlines have only 4 first class seats) more frequent flier miles or a more fiscally lenient corporate policy entitle you to more of something so basic as an adequate portion of space in which to place your body? \*\* Meaningful? Good lord, what self-indulgent twaddle. There is no “right” to an “adequate” portion of anything, for two reasons: first, what is “adequate” varies too much by the individual, and second, because effectively you’re demanding that others subsidize your “adequacy.” If something isn’t “adequate” for you, make some decisions - I’ve outlined them for you. Anyone who has the means to board an airplane in the first place is obviously not suffering from such abject poverty that they truly have no choices. And, most emphatically, _not a single person on this planet_ is “entitled” to better ones by the simple act of existing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/economy-class-seating-my-ass/208542.md?page=6)