# Ed Brown Raid - Tax Evasion
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 12, 2007, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766 "2007-06-12T20:58:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2007, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/21 "2007-06-12T23:36:35Z")
[QUOTE=bobsled]
The Federal Reserve is not a government entity, but instead a private bank that print money for the government with interest. That interest is paid off by our income tax. Therefore, the government does not print money even though it has the right to do so.
[/QUOTE]
First of all, the US Mint prints money, not the Federal Reserve. Second, even if the Fed did print money, what does this have to do with whether income tax is legal or not?
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/22 "2007-06-12T23:47:25Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay]
First of all, the US Mint prints money, not the Federal Reserve.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, not the US Mint (which makes coins).
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/23 "2007-06-12T23:49:23Z")
Because they’re prophets of a new religion!
> **[Does Ed Brown have legal standing?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407101)**
>
> Does Ed Brown have legal standing? You know, the guy who hasn’t paid his income taxes in ten years and is now suffering the penalty. He claims that income tax is not legal because the Sixteenth Amendment was not ratified; even though, according to...
This is the last Ed Brown thread.
> [@A link in one of my posts](#):
>
> The couple formerly known as Ed and Elaine Brown are not judges and do not have the authority to dismiss their own criminal case, according to Judge Steven McAuliffe, who oversaw their trial and will decide their sentences later this month.
>
> The Browns, of Plainfield, recently ordered the clerk to close their case, citing themselves as “the court” and “judge.” They signed their filings using the names they have recently adopted: Edward, a Living Soul in the Body of the Lord, of the House of Israel, and Elaine, a Living Soul in the Body of the Lord, of the House of Israel.
Mr. Brown appears to maintain the Feds have no jurisdiction in New Hampshire, either.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/24 "2007-06-12T23:58:30Z")
Or to put my argument another way. The Soviet Union had a very nice constitution. That constitution guaranteed freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and so forth. Except if the KGB arrested you and you tried to show them the constitution of the USSR they would have laughed at you.
Your contention is that we are living in a similar situation, except you somehow seem to think that showing the KGB the constitution will force them to let you go. You believe a contradiction: on the one hand the cops and courts ignore the law, on the other hand if you just tell them they ignore the law they will be forced to follow the law. Except if they ignore the law, why should they follow the law just because you tell them they are ignoring the law? By your first premise, they will ignore that!
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### Author:  [@bobsled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobsled)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/25 "2007-06-13T00:18:38Z")
I have heard the argument that The Fed was created by act of Congress and It is at least quasi governmental. Then I would like to know who has ’shares’ in the Fed, and who is making dividends, because they don’t print money for free, and they don’t print money out of the goodness of their hearts. You can’t claim that the Fed is ’quasi governmental’ and then allow the bank to operate in secrecy. I want a list of stockholders in the Fed. I want to know who is making interest off the printing of money. I want names.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/26 "2007-06-13T00:25:25Z")
Maybe this will get you started:
> **[Federal Reserve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve)**
>
> The Federal Reserve System (often shortened to the Federal Reserve, or simply the Fed) is the central banking system of the United States. It was created on December 23, 1913, with the enactment of the Federal Reserve Act, after a series of financial panics (particularly the panic of 1907) led to the desire for central control of the monetary system in order to alleviate financial crises.\[list 1\] Over the years, events such as the Great Depression in the 1930s and the Great Recession during t...
But what does the Federal Reserve have to do with income taxes?
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/27 "2007-06-13T00:28:41Z")
Aha! You’ve seen this film:
> **[America: Freedom to Fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America:_Freedom_to_Fascism)**
>
> America: Freedom to Fascism is a 2006 American film by filmmaker and activist Aaron Russo, covering a variety of subjects that Russo contends are detrimental to Americans. Topics include the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), the income tax, Federal Reserve System, national ID cards (REAL ID Act), human-implanted RFID tags, Diebold electronic voting machines, globalization, Big Brother, taser weapons abuse, and the use of terrorism by the government as a means to diminish the citizens' rights.
> The ...
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/28 "2007-06-13T01:27:53Z")
[QUOTE=bobsled]
I have heard the argument that The Fed was created by act of Congress and It is at least quasi governmental. Then I would like to know who has ’shares’ in the Fed, and who is making dividends, because they don’t print money for free, and they don’t print money out of the goodness of their hearts. You can’t claim that the Fed is ’quasi governmental’ and then allow the bank to operate in secrecy. I want a list of stockholders in the Fed. I want to know who is making interest off the printing of money. I want names.
[/QUOTE]
The Fed does _not_ print money. You can’t even find an accurate premise for your belief. Why should we listen to what you have to say?
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### Author:  [@bobsled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobsled)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/29 "2007-06-13T01:45:26Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay]
The Fed does _not_ print money. You can’t even find an accurate premise for your belief. Why should we listen to what you have to say?
[/QUOTE]
> [@](#):
>
> The United States Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) is an government agency in the United States Department of the Treasury that primarily prints Federal Reserve notes for the Federal Reserve, but also produces a variety of other government security documents.
> **[Bureau of Engraving and Printing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Engraving_and_Printing)**
>
> The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) is a government agency within the United States Department of the Treasury that designs and produces a variety of security products for the United States government, most notable of which is Federal Reserve Notes (paper money) for the Federal Reserve, the nation's central bank. In addition to paper currency, the BEP produces Treasury securities; military commissions and award certificates; invitations and admission cards; and many different types of i...
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### Author:  [@bobsled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobsled)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/30 "2007-06-13T01:49:06Z")
Article 1, Section 8 says Congress shall have the power: _“To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;”_. Since this power is only given to the Congress, they were never explicitly given the ability to designate this responsibility to another entity. Thus, any fiat currency printed by the federal reserve is neither legal tender for debts, nor can be considered income as defined by the 16th amendment. Therefore since we neither owe or possess any legal currency, we have no taxable income as defined by the 16th amendment.
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### Author:  [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/31 "2007-06-13T02:05:27Z")
[QUOTE=bobsled]
Article 1, Section 8 says Congress shall have the power: _“To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;”_. Since this power is only given to the Congress, they were never explicitly given the ability to designate this responsibility to another entity. Thus, any fiat currency printed by the federal reserve is neither legal tender for debts, nor can be considered income as defined by the 16th amendment. Therefore since we neither owe or possess any legal currency, we have no taxable income as defined by the 16th amendment.
[/QUOTE]
What do you barter for your groceries?
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/32 "2007-06-13T02:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=bobsled]
Article 1, Section 8 says Congress shall have the power: _“To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;”_. Since this power is only given to the Congress, they were never explicitly given the ability to designate this responsibility to another entity.
[/QUOTE]
This is absurd. Do you seriously believe my elected represetative must split his time between voting on the floor of Congress, and personally striking coins down at the Mint? Of course they can designate another entity to print money.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/33 "2007-06-13T03:23:15Z")
Art I Sec 8 also says that Congress shall not only define, but also punish, piracy and felonies on the high seas and offenses against the law of nations.
By the OP’s reasoning, it must be unconstitutional to allow the Executive and Judicial branches the ability to punish those accused of terrorism. Apparently there has to be trials conducted by Congress so that bad guys may be sentenced to prison terms in institutions run by the legislative branch. Someone get on the horn to Guantanamo, quickly, and have the Navy deliver the accused terrorists to Capitol Hill, post haste!!
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/34 "2007-06-13T03:28:49Z")
[Earlier thread on Ed Brown.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407101)
Read it all, it’s a ton of fun.
Short answer: Brown is a racist/libertarian/militiaman asshole. OK, maybe he’s not a racist as such, but there’s a lot of practical overlap between those movements. Just ask Tim McVeigh, if you have a ouija board.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/35 "2007-06-13T03:33:13Z")
[QUOTE=bobsled]
The Federal Reserve is not a government entity, but instead a private bank that print money for the government with interest. That interest is paid off by our income tax.
[/QUOTE]
So what?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/36 "2007-06-13T03:35:42Z")
[QUOTE=bobsled]
Article 1, Section 8 says Congress shall have the power: _“To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;”_. Since this power is only given to the Congress, they were never explicitly given the ability to designate this responsibility to another entity. Thus, any fiat currency printed by the federal reserve is neither legal tender for debts, nor can be considered income as defined by the 16th amendment. Therefore since we neither owe or possess any legal currency, we have no taxable income as defined by the 16th amendment.
[/QUOTE]
:dubious: You wouldn’t be channeling [Heinlein,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=397032) would you?
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### Author:  [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/37 "2007-06-13T03:42:13Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman]
Art I Sec 8 also says that Congress shall not only define, but also punish, piracy and felonies on the high seas and offenses against the law of nations.
[/QUOTE]
And;
- Collect taxes.
- Establish post offices and post roads.
- Raise and support armies.
- Provide and maintain a navy.
So really, before Congress even get to coining all that currency, they first have to finish their duties captaining a naval vessel they have built (without a crew, of course) to defeat pirates (and the occasional dictator), before getting home to erect buldings and roads, and stopping every now and then to visit each of their constituents to collect their taxes and ask them to enlist. And all that stuff about making laws, I guess.
Curses! This “doesn’t explicitly say they can do it” subject is a mite tricky. If only there were some section of the U.S. Constitution setting out the “limits” of Congress, so we’d know explicitly what they can’t do. Darn. If only the founders had thought to add such a section, perhaps in close proximity to the powers one, we would know for certain.
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### Author:  [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/38 "2007-06-13T05:28:50Z")
Quick summary here:
Guest: Nobody can point to a law that says you have to pay taxes
Members: Here it is, right here, in the 16th amendment.
Guest: But the Fed prints money.
Members: No it doesn’t.
Guest: None of our money is legal anyway, because only congress can print money, and they’re not allowed to give the duty to anyone else.
Me: The Bureau of Engraving and Printing is part of the Department of the Treasury, which was created by an act of congress for the purpose of managing the country’s currency. I’d say that’s about as much of a congressional mandate as you can possibly get, right?
Unless you’re arguing that only congressmen have the right to operate the machines that print money because the article doesn’t allow hourly laborers to do it, you don’t have a leg to stand on. If that IS your argument, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Congress has the right to print and coin money, so they created an agency to print money.
By the way, pay your taxes, you damned cheapskate.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/39 "2007-06-13T05:35:41Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier]
By the way, pay your taxes, you damned cheapskate.
[/QUOTE]
**Moderator’s Warning:** Let’s keep the personal digs out of Great Debates, please.
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### Author:  [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2007, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-brown-raid-tax-evasion/407766/40 "2007-06-13T05:48:44Z")
[QUOTE=MEBuckner]
**Moderator’s Warning:** Let’s keep the personal digs out of Great Debates, please.
[/QUOTE]
It was supposed to be a joke, but I’m not very funny. Care to edit it out for me?
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