# Ed, I think your efforts to improve the Dope have been a failure so far. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [March 3, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210 "2009-03-03T23:43:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/161 "2009-03-08T19:57:51Z")
**Ed** , thank you for the apology, which I am happy to accept at face value. It’s not easy to step up and admit when you’re wrong, and I appreciate and respect that you have done so here. Ordinarily, etiquette requires that when one accepts an apology, sincerely given, one leaves it at that and moves on, and does not expound on the original “sin” that necessitated it. And while I’ll do my best not to do that, since you are, in essence, asking me to stay, I’ll need to make clear what it will take for me to consider that, which, unfortunately, will require a bit of rehashing, I’m afraid. First, I posted those excerpts from the Cellar’s FAQs for a reason; the highlighted portions are a significant reason that you and your team find yourself in the position you’re in now. Once again: > [@](#): > > In fact, **communities are needed the most when the plan fails**. > > A community **needs a sense of continuity**. > > The [community] is **not about [the owners], it’s about you, [the members]**. > > Disagreement and honesty are **critical to a community’s health.** I believe that because you, by necessity, have to keep yourself at somewhat of a distance from the “community”, that you have failed to see the depth to which this place has become more than just a random place to chat, clearly not for all of us, but for an apparently large percentage of us. But even if you want to discount that angle of it, which is certainly your prerogative, what you should not, as a business operator, dismiss, is the fact that we, not you, are the ones who have made the message board portion of your site the success that it is. If we weren’t contributing thoughtful, intelligent posts; weren’t nice to new people who land here through other outlets; weren’t, at least to some degree, self-policing to help maintain the atmosphere here, there would quite literally be no community to speak of. _We_ are what makes this “the best board on the Internet”. Period. I won’t deign to speak for anyone else, but having read through so many of these threads, I think I can safely say I’m speaking the same thoughts as many. We are frustrated with the fact that our input is never taken seriously. We are frustrated that our ideas are dismissed or ignored. We are frustrated and angry that the rules are so arbitrary that we can’t figure out what will earn us a warning, or worse, a banning. We are frustrated that when we ask for clarification, oftentimes we don’t get it. Lynn has still not bothered to reply to a question I posed about a moderator warning that was actually some vague “strongly worded recommendation” (or something) that didn’t appear to actually violate any rules. If we don’t _get it_, how can we be expected to follow it? And if we ask and are ignored. . . well, I’m sure you can imagine where that might lead to further annoyance and frustration. I’m not going to use this post to tell you what I think you should do to make it better and make some of the people who left come back. I will, however, recommend that you create a whole new forum and call it something like, “The Idea Factory”, where members can start threads about what they’d like to see in terms of features and forums and offer input about income sources, etc. Give us a place to have a voice and then take some of our advice and see how it goes. I think that until the people who’ve actually developed this community into what it is today, feel they’re being respected for the degree to which they’ve actually made this a successful venture, you’re going to continue to feel some repercussions. I won’t be so melodramatic as to claim it’s going to disintegrate and end forever. But you will certainly miss many of the voices that made this place sing at one time. I wish you the best of luck. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/162 "2009-03-08T20:00:20Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > (my bold) > > I think I speak for many Dopers when I say that you couldn’t be more wrong. You are one of \*the \*Dopers. I came back into this thread to say exactly what **NineToTheSky** said, except more vehemently. I always enjoy your posts, **eleantorigby** , and you also introduced me to a great song. ---
**Author:** ![RobuSensei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/919ad9/32.png) [@RobuSensei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobuSensei)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/163 "2009-03-08T20:24:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I didn’t notice there were any changes until people started complaining about them. I think what Ed was doing is needed in some form. There’s become a very ugly dynamic to a portion of pit threads that has been growing and growing. > > I think we have a portion of people here who are socially inept and cowardly in real life who make up for it by attacking people anonymously and safely on the internet. It gives them power and makes them feel good. Once a good target has been identified, they pile on with the attacks and drama. I think it’s chased away a lot of good people, and really taken away one of the main things that attracted me to this board. It used to be that you weren’t villified for taking a contrary position to popular board thinking. You were only villified if your arguments were bad. > > Nowadays, it doesn’t really matter too much what you say, if you’re on the wrong side of an argument your attacked. > > I’ve tried with varying success simply to keep my own counsel, and I realize the attacks are manipulative in nature. > > Ed, you’re on the wrong side of the argument here, and you’re being bullied and you can’t do the right things without coming under attack. Keep your own counsel. Do what you think is right. If you don’t chase out the rabidity there’s no point to this place. Congratulations; you seem to have missed the point as to why so many of us were/are annoyed and upset. Shayna has said it more eloquently than I can manage at this point. > [@Shayna](#): > > I won’t deign to speak for anyone else, but having read through so many of these threads, I think I can safely say I’m speaking the same thoughts as many. We are frustrated with the fact that our input is never taken seriously. We are frustrated that our ideas are dismissed or ignored. We are frustrated and angry that the rules are so arbitrary that we can’t figure out what will earn us a warning, or worse, a banning. We are frustrated that when we ask for clarification, oftentimes we don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/164 "2009-03-08T20:40:25Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I didn’t notice there were any changes until people started complaining about them. I think what Ed was doing is needed in some form. There’s become a very ugly dynamic to a portion of pit threads that has been growing and growing. > > I think we have a portion of people here who are socially inept and cowardly in real life who make up for it by attacking people anonymously and safely on the internet. It gives them power and makes them feel good. Once a good target has been identified, they pile on with the attacks and drama. I think it’s chased away a lot of good people, and really taken away one of the main things that attracted me to this board. It used to be that you weren’t villified for taking a contrary position to popular board thinking. You were only villified if your arguments were bad. > > Nowadays, it doesn’t really matter too much what you say, if you’re on the wrong side of an argument your attacked. > > I’ve tried with varying success simply to keep my own counsel, and I realize the attacks are manipulative in nature. > > Ed, you’re on the wrong side of the argument here, and you’re being bullied and you can’t do the right things without coming under attack. Keep your own counsel. Do what you think is right. If you don’t chase out the rabidity there’s no point to this place. One more otherwise brilliant poster that somehow missed the point of the thread. How is that possible? I really expect better of you at least **Scylla**. I know how smart you are. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/165 "2009-03-08T20:49:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I came back into this thread to say exactly what **NineToTheSky** said, except more vehemently. I always enjoy your posts, **eleantorigby** , and you also introduced me to a great song. Seriously? :eek: (really, though–you didn’t know the Beatle’s song? Were you raised under a rock or what?) 😛 Thank you both very much. I’m a bit taken aback, but pleased. I can’t cite X and Y or expound prolifically on Z, so I figure I’m pretty much wallpaper… I’m glad some healing has started to occur. Sooner or late, I’ll get myself sorted. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/166 "2009-03-08T21:02:22Z")
Actually, **Scylla** has a point–there has been some _weird_ level of stalking going on. Person X posts something in GD that people don’t like, goes over to MSPIMS or the Pit to talk about a totally separate issue and gets pig-piled for what they said in the GD thread. Used to be that shit was against the rules (And hijacking a thread for a totally unrelated issue pretty much nicely fits the “jerk” definition). Now days, the mods are so busy enforcing fucked up crap like the “All thread titles have to be vetted by Lynn to meet her standards of accuracy” rules (or better, trying to figure out what the rules are from minute to minute) that stuff like this seems to get a pass–and we don’t need “don’t say cunt” civility, but basic “don’t stalk people” civility if the board is going to function. How many times have you seen a post from **Lissener** that, had anyone else posted it, would have been fine, turn into a **Lissener** suks thread via hijacking? **Scylla** seems to have gotten similar treatment, and there are at least four or five others I can think of off-hand. Why isn’t shit like THAT being stopped, if “civility” is the goal? By all means, if someone posts something that pisses you off, you should (be able to) pit them. If they have a history of bad behavior, you give them an even shorter rope before you pit them. But it used to be that if you posted a “good” OP, even if you were a known dick (and I’m not saying anyone I mentioned is or isn’t), it was expected that issues from other threads not be brought in unless relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/167 "2009-03-08T22:01:19Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > One more otherwise brilliant poster that somehow missed the point of the thread. How is that possible? I really expect better of you at least **Scylla**. I know how smart you are. I get the point. I just think it’s stupid. Ed’s interference is spawned by the fact that as a group we are whiny, selfish, self-indulgent, and so incredibly nasty to such an extent that we clearly can’t be self-responsible. It should be inherently obvious that some of the extreme and hateful behavior presents possible problems for Ed and whatever company happens to own this place at the moment. At times this place has had spillover into the real world. Suppose somebody kills themself because of a feud here? Suppose they kill somebody else? Suppose somebody loses a job because of something somebody says here? Some of the particularly hateful behavior here may cross legal lines. Is it verbal assault? What if it demonstrably damages somebody? The Mods can’t be everywhere, but in a legal setting, after an incident, perhaps posts will show a pattern of behavior that damaged somebody which was against board policy, but which the mods did not see. A court might consider the owners of this board negligent for not enforcing their own rules. They might be partially liable. I can easily think up 20 or 30 different examples where it could come back on this board. I’ve seen several dangerous ones IRL, too, that would have made me very nervous if I owned this board. This is why I think the “point” is stupid. The administrators have to interfere because of a growing pattern of extreme hateful behavior. That behavior exists because as a group we are not capable of basic civilized restraint or a minimum of civility. We act like immature and dangerous children. Suddenly, an adult steps in and we have the nerve to be angry that we are not consulted in how our totally irresponsible behavior is corrected? Are we like the housewives or Orange County that we are so self-absorbed and stupid that we don’t even see the ridiculousness of our position? If we acted responsibly as a group this wouldn’t be needed. Since we don’t our input is moot. It’s not just the ones being actively hateful. It’s the ones that spur them on, or give them support, or instigate, or the ones that just stand and watch. If you think it doesn’t happen, you’re kidding yourself. There are other boards devoted to spectating trainwrecks and meltdowns, and people who think it’s fun to make them happen. That’s the environment. People do it because it’s fun and they can get away with it, indeed they get support for doing it. It is acceptable. If we didn’t accept it, if we made the people who were doing it uncomfortable, they wouldn’t. But we don’t do that, do we? The basic rule I try to follow is that I pretend the person is in the room with me. If I wouldn’t say it to them then, I shouldn’t say it here. I say “try,” I don’t always do it, but I try. So no, I really don’t see how we have the right to any input on how to correct unacceptable behavior. If we don’t do unacceptable things, it’s not an issue. But I understand that whining and bitching and carping is a God given right on the internet, I’m just surprised Ed is getting sucked in enough to give it credence. The more attention you pay to it, the more it grows. “Let the beatings continue until moral improves.” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/168 "2009-03-08T22:04:57Z")
Smiley was omitted but the last line was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/169 "2009-03-08T22:06:32Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Ed flat out told us he doesn’t want us here, and doesn’t care if we leave. > . Link please. (I’m not doubting you. I’d just like to read it in it’s full context) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/170 "2009-03-08T22:25:32Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I get the point. I just think it’s stupid. Ed’s interference is spawned by the fact that as a group we are whiny, selfish, self-indulgent, and so incredibly nasty to such an extent that we clearly can’t be self-responsible. > … Thanks, I see you did not get the point. My op barely touches on the dirty words rules. That is not directly important to me. Maybe you also wandered into the wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/171 "2009-03-08T22:33:07Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > Link please. (I’m not doubting you. I’d just like to read it in it’s full context) Try the last line or so quoted in my post #142 in this thread. (Which contains a link to the original thread.) He’s made similar remarks repeatedly, in the same tone. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/172 "2009-03-08T22:35:53Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Thanks, I see you did not get the point. My op barely touches on the dirty words rules. That is not directly important to me. Maybe you also wandered into the wrong thread. Maybe neither of us was getting the point, because I wasn’t even thinking about the “dirty words” rule. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/173 "2009-03-08T22:43:41Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Maybe neither of us was getting the point, because I wasn’t even thinking about the “dirty words” rule. Well your point seemed to be to rant about something unrelated to the thread which is about: “My complaints were technical, planning, communication and most importantly community.” How does you post address these issues? Why are my points stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/174 "2009-03-08T22:47:56Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > . . .because as a group we are not capable of basic civilized restraint or a minimum of civility. We act like immature and dangerous children. Speak for your own damn self. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/175 "2009-03-08T22:48:56Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Well your point seemed to be to rant about something unrelated to the thread which is about: “My complaints were technical, planning, communication and most importantly community.” > > How does you post address these issues? Why are my points stupid? I apologize. I don’t mean that you and your points are “stupid.” It was more of a comment on the general tone of outrage at Ed. Since you can’t read my mind, and I didn’t communicate that clearly, the fault is mine. Again, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/176 "2009-03-08T22:49:35Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I get the point. I just think it’s stupid. Ed’s interference is spawned by the fact that as a group we are whiny, selfish, self-indulgent, and so incredibly nasty to such an extent that we clearly can’t be self-responsible. > > It should be inherently obvious that some of the extreme and hateful behavior presents possible problems for Ed and whatever company happens to own this place at the moment. At times this place has had spillover into the real world. Suppose somebody kills themself because of a feud here? Suppose they kill somebody else? Suppose somebody loses a job because of something somebody says here? > > Some of the particularly hateful behavior here may cross legal lines. Is it verbal assault? What if it demonstrably damages somebody? But **Ed** wasn’t addressing that. There’s an argument to be made for that point–and it’s a shame it wasn’t made. What WAS made was a rule that (short version) started out as “No insulting other posters with certain words unless they’re funny and creative” and morphed into a “bad words” list. You make an interesting point that I think needs to be discussed and looked at seriously–and if Ed had said “Hey, the hateful shit in the Pit is getting out of hand–how can we tone it down?” he would have gotten a lot of feedback. What he came up with is a list of about 15 words you can’t say–anything else is kinda fair game. Which doesn’t address your concerns in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/177 "2009-03-08T22:50:30Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Speak for your own damn self. I’ll state my opinions on the community freely. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/178 "2009-03-08T22:57:25Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > But **Ed** > > What he came up with is a list of about 15 words you can’t say–anything else is kinda fair game. Which doesn’t address your concerns in the slightest. I’m kind of assuming that the specific rules on language were a first step in dealing with the problem I’ve described. The kind of people who I see as the root of the problem aren’t a particularly intellectually creative group. Those words are pretty much their bread and butter. The behavior I’m talking about is difficult to pin down and specifically outlaw. The words tend to be a symptom, but at least they can be rigorously defined. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/179 "2009-03-08T22:57:31Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I apologize. I don’t mean that you and your points are “stupid.” It was more of a comment on the general tone of outrage at Ed. Since you can’t read my mind, and I didn’t communicate that clearly, the fault is mine. Again, sorry. Thank you for the apology. I’ve seen the outrage, but this thread is not one of outrage. I tried to calmly point out what I see it wrong and why. The board is going to change, that is clear. Hopefully the change will now include more communication and at least some focus on the community. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210/180 "2009-03-08T23:00:57Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …We act like immature and dangerous children… Sez YOU! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ed-i-think-your-efforts-to-improve-the-dope-have-been-a-failure-so-far/488210.md?page=10)