Educate me on Hot Tubs & Jacuzzis please

Factual Questions
21

I just researched this for a Welcome Home present for my husband for his return from Afghanistan.

One of the sites I went to was spasearch.com where they compare the features of many of the different hottubs.

Much depends on how you’re using it. I doubt you’d feel the difference between 30 jets and 50 jets and the prices are extremely varied. We looked at spas between $5000 and $10,000 and ultimately decided on a Sundance Spa for around $8000.

One of the things about spas that most people forget is that there is a cost of operation, too. Most of the spas cost about $1.00 a day to heat plus chemicals and they require a certain amount of maintenance with filters and such.

The spa-type bathtubs are possibly a better bet for therapy needs. I’ve not researched them but it would seem that they would be much less maintenance and less costly both in the initial price running it. Of course there would be that bathroom remodel…

22

I’ll do my best without being overbearing.

680.7 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment (A) Length. For other than storable pools, the flexible cord shall not exceed 900 mm (3 ft) length. Same in 680.21 (5) regarding length.

680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.

(A) Receptacles.
(1) Circulation and Sanitation System, Location. Receptacles that provide power for water-pump motors or for other loads directly related to the circulation and sanitation system shall be located at least 3.0m (10 ft) from the inside walls of the pool, or not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) from the inside walls of the pool if they meet all of the folowing conditions:
(1) Consist of single receptacles
(2) Employ a locking configuration
(3) Are of the grounding type
(4) Have GFCI protection

680.22 (A)(2) Other Receptacles, Location. Other receptacles shall be not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) from the inside walls of the pool.

680.22 (A)(3) Dwelling unit(s). Where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one 125-volt 15-or 20-ampere receptacle on a general-purpose branch circuit shall be located not less than 3.0m (10 ft) from, and not more than 6.0m (20 ft) from, the inside wall of the pool. This receptacle shall be located not more than 2.0m (6 ft 6 in.) above the floor, platform, or grade level serving the pool.

Lighting fixtures, and other considerations apply beyond the scope of this post.

23

danceswithcats,

I’m not disputing your cite or your expertise, but I’m wonderin how the boys who write the NEC intend for people to use pools with flexible cords when the cord must be less than 3 feet long while the outlet must be at least 10 feet away.

The obvious answer is tu use an extension cord, but that just ensures you’ve got a non-waterproof temporary connection lying on the ground within 3 feet of the pool.

Sounds like Catch-22 to me.

24

Aren’t most hot tubs hard wired in. If you have proper conduit all the way up to the motor and such there is no “receptacle” per se. I realize Softtubs are not hard wired in, I’m guessing that a softub installation has never really crossed paths with a building inspector on any regular basis or the inspectors are not sweating them much since they are for most intents and purposes nothing more electrically dangerous than a refrigerator.

IIANECE I am not an electrical code expert, just the son of a general contractor.

25

My parents have a “jet-tub” which is basically a bathtub with jets. It gets as hot as your bathwater can provide (it does not do its own heating so far as I know) and is emptied with every use, just like a normal bathtub.

It certainly offers the convenience factor since you don’t have to mess around with chemicals. However, I imagine it uses a lot more water per use, so I guess a cost comparison would depend on what water costs you in your locale.

My parent’s is just somewhat larger than a standard bathtub (a few inches wider) and has space for 1 person, or 2 if they’re mighty friendly. I believe it is made by American Standard.

26

I’m familiar with coliform, but was speaking LayPerson. The problem with hot tubs is that people typically do not perform the needed maintenance. Remember, Doc, these units typically have extensive pipes/tubing that cannot be reached by hand and few people run bleach through their hot tubs–especially hot tubs in a bathroom.

I’ll get an article for you, but don’t expect JAMA.

27

OK, I’m back. Doc, I’m not suggesting a widespread problem, merely raising possibilities. Much research is needed. The risks are probably quite low. No need to worry. Still…

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/24/health/webmd/main697539.shtml

(WebMD) Patients who suffer from cough and breathlessness may be victims of what doctors call hot tub lung, Minnesota researchers report at the American Thoracic Society international meeting.

“Doctors often don’t think to ask their patients if they have been using a hot tub,” says Viktor Hanak, MD, pulmonary fellow at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. “Patients also need to tell their doctors if they regularly use a hot tub if they have respiratory problems.”

“But this is a treatable condition and it’s important to receive early treatment before damage is done,” Randall tells WebMD.

The Mayo report includes 22 people who had symptoms for an average of seven months. All had coughing, shortness of breath, fever, and weight loss, says Hanak.

Although most had been to the doctor, they were misdiagnosed with asthma or bronchitis, he tells WebMD. “It is difficult to diagnose if you don’t think of asking about a hot tub, but nobody thinks of it. Therefore, most patients have been diagnosed with something else.”

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Q1N0EU2U5uUJ:www.httg.com/hottub_filth.htm+"hot+tub"+bacteria&hl=en

Lawsuits are currently pending, because consumer complaints went unheard about “yellowish sludge,” “greenish-black gunk,” and “black, filmy debris,” coming from piping of their tubs.

“They (the piped tubs in question) harbor bacteria, soap debris, and scum in the piping systems back behind the jets. Then whenever the tubs are turned on and the jets are activated all of that is sloughed off …You can’t (always) see it, but it circulates back into the user’s water,” she said. The problem is found within the design of many tubs. Bath water does not completely drain from the pipes. Instead, it remains in the damp and dark environment–the perfect breeding ground for bacteria–until the next time someone uses the bath. This water often includes soap film, hair, dead skin, body oil, dirt, and feces.

These pathogens then come rushing out of the pipes, into the air and the “clean” bath water. The person taking the bath is subject to inhaling and ingesting bacteria, along with immersing themselves in a variety of pathogens that can infect open wounds. Those included in the suit have reported illness. “We have some people who are ill. We have records of some people having skin rashes, respiratory, urinary tract, and Staph infections, but we don’t know how many records are actually out there because the tub companies destroyed them,” Bray said. The whirlpool manufacturers in question disagree.
Rita B. Moyes, PhD, with the Department of Biology at Texas A&M University, decided to research the water quality of 43 whirlpool baths while writing, “Microbial Loads in Whirlpool Bathtubs: An Emerging Health Risk.” She found 100% of the samples, taken from both private and public tubs, contained microbial growth; 95% of the water sampled additionally contained enteric organisms; 81% had fungi; 56% had Pseudomonas sp.; 36% had Legionella sp.; and 34% had Staphylococcus aureus.

http://www.erc.montana.edu/CBEssentials-SW/recent-media-cov/Delude050603.htm

Biofilms can persist through disinfection because their slime protects the bacteria from chemicals. Likewise, many bacteria actually thrive in hot water, while the heat reduces the effectiveness of disinfectants. Scientists are developing ways to prevent biofilms from accumulating, but so far, slime has the upper hand.

28

FWIW a friend of mine put in a spa type tub when she built her house. She dones’t use it anymore, because she discovered that it was the prime bitch of all time to clean and get rid of all the water spots.

29

Interesting, Carnac. I had heard about the pseudomonas problem before. But as the Texas A & M study points out, it is about microbial loads. That’s why I like the softub, as it is constantly brominated. I also take measures to keep the pH in the proper range and use enzymes and oxidizers regularly. Hence the microbial loads are kept low. We’ve tested for aspergillus and pseudomonas in the past, and come up negative. No funky rashes either.

But as Damon Runyan said, “All of life is six to five against.” You pays your money and you takes your chances, and you work to minimize risk reasonably. Our hot tub has definitely been worth it.

30

A lot of great exchanges! Thanks. Info from wiring codes, placement, maintenance and illness! Very enlightening. I intend to be typically the only one using this so cross-exposure will be low. It will be on our screened back porch so indoor concerns are limited. I don’t think we are going to pursue the spa-tub installation in a bathoom option for a couple of reasons, the greatest of which is the diffuculty I have getting into and out of a typical tub.
I have a couple of friends in the plumbing business and will talk to them about the costs and maint. experiances thay have had with differing types. I looked at the Softub site but see nothing with pricing examples. I found a dealer in a nearby city and may try to get down there and look around.

31

My husband and I built a 12’ X 12’ room onto our master bedroom so that we could have room for a spa. It’s what’s referred to as a 5-person tub. This means that there are 5 different seats (including a “lay-down” or “chaise”) with 5 different configurations of jets. Each station features an array of jets aimed at massaging a particular part of one’s back or shoulders or even feet. Depending on the type of therapy a doctor suggests, you may want to consider what types of jet configurations would be most beneficial. You may find that you can get all the therapy you need from what a 2- or 3-person tub can offer. In that case, less tub, less energy used.

There are a few different methods of water-quality maintenance. You can go the chlorine route, but you will have itchy skin, burning eyes, and that signature smell. There is also bromine. With bromine, you don’t get the smell so much, and no burning eyes, but you may still have the itchy skin. My husband uses a product called “Rainforest Blue” that works with the pH of the water and maintains a balance of copper (of all things). There is no smell, no burning eyes and no itchy skin.

We drain the tub about every four to six months depending on how much we use it. The manuals recommend three months, but we use it so infrequently, we can stretch it. When we drain it, we also take a wet/dry vacuum and suck out all the water that remains in the lines that feed the filtration system (very simple procedure because the hose that connects to the vacuum is accessible behind a panel on the side that comes loose). This way, once it is refilled and turned on, every bit of the water is new water. When we fill it, we also run the water through a filter because our water comes from a well, and that water is so hard, we have to use muriatic acid just to bring it down to a manageable pH level.

One of the most important things we do (or don’t do) is we NEVER get into the tub with bathing suits or clothing of any kind. It’s always just the two of us, and we learned early on in our research that when clothing is washed using detergent of any kind, the detergent never completely rinses out of the garment. Even if there are trace amounts of soap in a bathing suit, the heated water in a spa will bring it out. You will end up with soap eventually clogging your filter. However, if your spa is going to double as kind of a family fun activity, I would recommend clothing. You will just have to drain it and clean the filter more often.

Overall, I have enjoyed the hell out of our tub. My husband is a restaurant owner and we both work together a lot of the time when he caters, and after working a banquet until midnight or later…slipping into that spa feels so good. I’m never sore the morning after a banquet if I soak in the tub before going to bed. Its benefits have by far outweighed the potential annoyances.

32

I have a follow-up question:

How much heat is too much? I don’t find 104 to be warm enough–I like 106-108 (42 C for you non-US folks). Am I risking damage, and if so, what sort?

33

Hey, discussion leads to learning, so if I cite NEC articles which make no sense to you, please call me on it. :slight_smile:

The apparent conflict lies in a definition. 680.7(A) States: For other than storable pools the flexible cord shall not exceed 900 mm (3 ft) in length.

680.2 Defines ‘Storable Swimming or Wading Pool’ as one constructed on or above ground, and are capable of holding water to a maximum depth of 1.0 m (42 in.), or a pool with nonmetallic, molded polymeric walls or inflatable fabric walls regardless of dimension.

With that in mind, flip over to 680 Section IV and looking at 680.42(A)(2) Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

This is why when a customer requests a quote for electrical wiring associated with one of these items, I start with manufacturer data to ascertain how the product is listed by UL. That listing then points to the correct portion of Article 680 to be used in determining receptacle placement and other issues affecting electrical installation.

By trying to condense the 14 pages of that article, confusion can arise. Regarding your observation drachillix, I’m in full agreement. Where permitted by the manufacturer, I’ll feed these units using Liquidtight Flexible Nonmetallic Conduit, rather than a cord-and-plug arrangement.

Just so no one howls-I’ve noted the apparent math fumble of 680.2 in that 1.0 m = 39.37 in, not 42 as printed. An email to NFPA will follow this post. :wink:

34

Are Softubs the ones that look like hollow hockey pucks? If so, you are sitting as you would if you were sitting on the floor. Legs at the same level as you butt. There is no foot well. For people that have problems sitting on the floor, or getting up from the floor, they could have similar problems with the Softub.

35

Something totally unrelated to the logistics of hot tub selection and maintenance (about which I know less than nothing): You might look into the tax implications of getting this thing, since it’s been recommended by a medical professional. It’s possible that part of the cost might be deductible. I have a dim recollection of my parents planning to deduct a portion of the cost of their central A/C, back in 1970 or so, because it was partly needed due to family allergies. I think the rationale was “it’ll add XX dollars to the value of the house, it costs YY dollars, so we can deduct (YY - XX) dollars as a medical expense”.

36

I do in fact have a prescription from my DR. for this. I hear it allows the seller to waive the taxes on the sale. A deduction at tax time? I am gonna have to look into this. If in fact it ends up being a Softub, I doubt it can be considered a permenant part of the house(an improvement) but as a medical expence there may be some hope.
Tastes of Chocolate- that is a very valid point in my case. It may be difficult to get out of such a tub. I wonder though how much this is off-set by the fact that a person would be floating, as it were.