In the late 1920’s my was granted a Naval EDO commission based on his Merchant Marine licenses. He had a 2nd in steam any horse power and a 3rd in motor vessels any horse power. His Chief Engineer said his licenses and time under articles should qualify him as a Lt Commander. A little problem in the interview with the Admiral and his commission came through as an Ensign. He came up through the hawspipe and was not a college graduate, infact he did not finish High School.
So in the past not all officers had college degrees.
Same thinking as with a lot of employers—the fact that you’ve earned a degree shows a minimum amount of intelligence, and an ability to complete something.
As someone with a degree, I’ve met college graduates who I wouldn’t hire to walk my dog; and non-college graduates with houses 10 times the size of mine and a driveway full of imported sports cars.
I guess that it is, in part, a class thing. My (admittedly thin) evidence is that once met a warrant officer (Navy, IIRC) who flew helicopters for the military. Airplane pilots are invariably officers. Now an airplane pilot is not a manager and the skills involved in piloting a plane are significantly less than in piloting a helicopter. My brother, who did pilot airplanes, although just as a hobby, explained to once that part of the reason was that a helicopter in full forward flight is always on the point of stalling and control is much harder. So why are all airplane pilots officers, while helicopter pilots are not? I think it is a class thing.
When was this? I joined the military in 1979 and that certainly is not the impression I got of how Warrant and Chief Warrant Officers were treated. Navy Chief Warrant Officers certainly got a lot of respect.
Regarding helicopters, I don’t recall if there were CWO helicopter pilots but that was the case with the Army when I was in the service.
The US Marines and Navy had flying sergeants and flying chief petty officers until the Battle of Wake Island during WWII. Wiser heads then prevailed and the decision was made that for all the new squadrons that would be forming, it’d be nice to have squadron commanders with more than 250 hours flight time in their log books. Oh, and these flying chiefs and sergeants were for the most part aircraft mechanics before they got their wings also. So they bumped the flying enlisted men to O-3 to train and command the O-1 and O-2 fliers with the brand new wings.
What evidence that you have that it’s “a class thing?”
I think that Warrant Officers flying in the Navy ended (if they ever did fly) in WWII, so that guy was long in the tooth.
The cheapest non-training aircraft in the Navy today that I can think of is possibly a C-40, that costs north of $70M. We could get some kid off the street and train him/her up to fly that. Or we could get someone who has at least shown some slightly greater dedication, increased maturity, and education to fly it. If doesn’t seem that hard to understand, that if you have the ability to get the most qualified, best candidate to do any job, why wouldn’t you?
Not to be a jerk, but have you even met anyone in the military?
Admittedly, I didn’t meet many WOs during my career, as there just weren’t very many serving with Group 8. The ones that I encountered seemed to be lost. They got respect from enlisted, but never seemed to fit in with the officer crowd. The WO pilots I was referring to are Army, not Navy; it was a general statement that wasn’t clear, obviously.
I know someone who enlisted in the Navy and is finishing up his final tour of duty a lieutenant commander. I don’t think he ever got a bachelor’s degree.
The Navy briefly revived the Flying CWO in recent years but it again got discontinued, and only some 49 flyers were involved. The program required candidates to have an Associate Degree (2 year college).
As it is the last High-School-to-Flight-School track in the US military would be the Army’s Aviation WO.
My thought, exactly. LDOs seldom rise above CDR grade, mainly because they’re specialists (not unrestricted line officers) and usually can’t rise to command level at sea.
Not 'usually" but “cannot” rise to command at sea. LDOs are ineligible for command at sea (but not necessary ashore).
My first CHENG (on a DDG) was an LDO who was previously a Master Chief on a submarine. He was disgusted with being an LDO and reverted back to Master Chief at the end of his tour.
Would you say that having 4 years of enlisted service under your belt would look good to a hiring manager? Perhaps because it shows dedication, responsibility, teamwork, etc?
It seems to me that there’s nothing special about a 4 year degree that will make someone a good leader. I have one (USAF enlisted, btw) and I’d make a terrible officer. If I were choosing people to send to OTS, having 4 years of EPRs on file would be more useful than a GPA from a state school and a letter of recommendation from a family friend.
And yet, the military will consider for OTS anyone who has a degree, and flat out will not consider an E4 with a proven track record of responsibility and letters of recommendation from commanding officers, without first making them go to college. OTS slots for prior enlisted members are very competitive, while ROTC slots are given away to any ol’ chucklehead. I can’t think of any good reason why it is this way other than it’s been done like that for a long time, and once upon a time requiring officers to have a bachelors degree was a good way to separate the gentlemen of society (who were the military officers for hundreds of years) from the lower classes who couldn’t afford college.
I dunno, I’m in the tech industry where people aren’t as impressed by degrees, so YMMV.
Can’t blame the guy at all. I don’t know why anybody would trade the prestige, authority and respect of being a Master Chief for being a junior officer, unless it was an ego thing. LDOs are called “Loud, Dumb, and Obnoxious” for a reason. The ones I knew certainly qualified. One that I worked for was annoyed about something and came over to morning quarters to address my people. He ranted a bit, then said something along the lines of “breaking someone’s kneecaps” if it happened again. One of my Equipment Operators (most of whom are Very Large Arrays), who had had his fill of all this, piped up with “Would you like to try that with me?”
Fair enough, I apologize fore the pejorative use of “chucklehead.” I was just trying to lighten the mood, but of course you’re right about it’s helpfulness.
Of course, most ROTC grads aren’t chuckleheads; certainly the scholarships are competitive. But the fact remains that if you’re want to be an officer and have access to money for college, you can go to college and sign up for ROTC (still have to do the work, of course), but if you’re equally competent and responsible but don’t have money, you may have to enlist and roll the dice with a commissioning program. Ergo, there’s some latent classism in the system.
(And accusing opposing viewpoints as “bitter,” also not all that helpful )
As a chucklehead with a PhD, I too am puzzled at the logic behind equating having an advanced degree with being “qualified” for many of the jobs in question. Unless all those degrees are in “computer systems, navigation systems, nuclear weapons, sonar systems, missile systems, [leading] hundreds of men and women, [and overseeing] billions of dollars.”
I do see a lot of degrees from University of Phoenix and their ilk on resumes coming out of the military. That certainly gives the appearance of box-checking.
Don’t know him that well. I was friends with his mother-in-law and would meet him sometimes when he and his wife were down here visiting. I knew him as an officer who had recently gotten promoted to lieutenant commander. After his m-i-l’s funeral, I was talking to him and his parents. It turns out his father was also enlisted Navy who was incredibly proud that his son who started out enlisted had made it as far as he had. That was when I found out that he’d been enlisted.
Oh for certain (not only in the military but in many government service and private executive career tracks) once you are in, there is a whole lot of box-checking for the expected continuing education. OTOH it’s not a career that lends itself easily to accruing the necessary credits at one single institution, due to all the relocations, and places like Phoenix take advantage of that (I expect that as more respectable schools and especially State colleges ramp up their online programs, they may take a bite out of the for-profits).
Chefguy, the Navy has always thrown me for a loop with its whole passel of peculiar accession and career tracks and classifications… but yes, I too find that it would be odd for someone at E8/E9 level in any service to bother to become an old lower-tier officer.
)