# Education and the “Educated” – Who Do I Pit? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478 "2004-06-15T15:06:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/61 "2004-06-16T14:24:54Z")
> [@Cerri](#): > > …Ok, can someone _please_ tell me how the fuck you get to college without ever having written anyting longer than one sheet of paper long? I wish I knew why, but I don’t remember writing many multi-page papers before I got to college. And I was perfectly capable of it. Imagine my horror when the first semester of college freshman English (which it turns out I could have tested out of) was about how to write a FIVE PARAGRAPH ESSAY. And you would not believe the shit people were getting Cs for. You just would not fucking believe it. I think the only reason I got a B in that class was because on the day of the final I was running a temp of 101, so I wasn’t at my best. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/62 "2004-06-16T14:48:35Z")
Some of the grammar, spelling and usage in this thread is appalling to me. I’m a professional editor with a degree in journalism. I grit my teeth with every thread I read, often editing and correcting posts in my head as I go along. To the OP, I would suggest that your step-daughter think about one thing: For those of us to whom grammar, conventions, style and syntax matter, when we read writing from someone who clearly does not care about those things . . . some of us might just think the writer is dumb. I know that’s harsh; please stay with me. I think inattention to poor writing can be a reflection of low intelligence. You may disagree and cite your IQ of 145, but if your writing sucks to the point where you cannot communicate clearly and concisely, then you have proven my point. That said, be sure to note that possibly 1-5% of the general population will share my attitude toward writing. My logic is that the smartest people tend to care about these tiny, nitpicky details and will proof their writing, even something as minor as an IM or an e-mail, before sending it out there becuase _they do not wish to be misunderstood_. In fact, I’m proofing right now to ensure I haven’t invoked Gaudere’s Law in this very post. 😃 I firmly believe that the ability to communicate well and clearly in writing matters. For many of you with poor writing skills, your posts lose credibility when I have to slog through so many mistakes in an attempt to figure out what you really mean. Your message can get lost, so therefore, it matters. I blame the poor quality of writing on two things: lack of attention to the basics in elementary school, including the disappearance of phonics to teach kids to read (and I believe reading and writing ability are inexorably linked), and the fact that schools rarely, if ever, teach Latin anymore. I took several years of Latin in high school. While it is a dead language and I’ve never had a conversation in Latin, my ability to diagram a sentence and _correct it_ improved dramatically. I had been taught how to diagram sentences in fifth grade and understood the concepts very well. Learning Latin made all that stick. More importantly, as an editor, I use those lessons from Latin class every single stinking day of my life. (Well, not on weekends!) Finally, for anyone who wishes to improve their writing and brush up on grammatical skills, I highly recommend a book called, [Writing Down the Bones](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-7681971-6470432) by Natalie Goldberg. The book includes a lot of great writing exercises that I’ve found useful in keeping my own writing skills sharp. I apologize if I’ve offended anyone (especially to people with learning disabilities like dyslexia – you might know the rules and think you spelled something correctly, but did not. I understand; I’m a tad dyslexic myself.), but I just wanted to say what no one else would: some of us really think this way. I just hope the person who makes the decision to hire your step-daughter or not isn’t one of us. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/63 "2004-06-16T15:08:47Z")
> [@kitarak](#): > > They’re not _apalling_ - my spelling is fine Nothing personal, **kitarak** - I just got a giggle out of this phrase. 😃 ‘Appalling’ has two 'p’s. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/64 "2004-06-16T15:24:46Z")
> [@Cerri](#): > > ahy_thing_…any\*thing[/n], not anyting. > _sigh_ I need to proofread better, before hitting submit. anything, not ahything, anyting or ahyting. and, not \*word[/n] this thread is funny for a lot of reasons, especially **Eve** ’s “apparently”. Anyway, give me a guy who is funny and interesting over a guy who doesn’t dangle his participles anyday. But the two do not have to be mutually exclsuive. ---
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/65 "2004-06-16T18:12:59Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > To the OP, I would suggest that your step-daughter think about one thing: For those of us to whom grammar, conventions, style and syntax matter, when we read writing from someone who clearly does not care about those things . . . some of us might just think the writer is dumb. > > … > > some of us really think this way. I just hope the person who makes the decision to hire your step-daughter or not isn’t one of us. Well, I’m one of you, and I suppose that’s why I wrote the OP. For the sake of my step-daughter I hope you’re right about there being only 1% to 5% of people who would base a hiring decision on grammar, spelling and so on. For the sake of the English language I would hope there were many more of us who cared. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/66 "2004-06-16T18:58:23Z")
Ah, I love these types of discussions. FYI: My undergraduate major was English, my current area of study is secondary education and I’m currently employed as a writing tutor at my university’s writing center. My own education in the area of grammar and sentence structure took place from roughly the middle of fifth grade until the end of eighth grade (the only grammar-intensive year). I cannot recall _any_ grammar lessons from my high school years. Sadly, I suspect that the same pattern exists in other districts. I see evidence for this suspicion while at work; professors consistently ask why it is that many incoming freshmen can’t write decent first-year papers. Indeed, I wonder why some graduate students seem to be incapable of writing complete, coherent sentences. So, whom should the OP pit? Pit those who construct English curricula that don’t emphasize the importance of proper grammar and syntax. After you do that, pit those administrators who encourage teachers with high(er) standards to let sub-standard work slide through. I needn’t instruct you to pit those teachers who simply don’t give a damn. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/67 "2004-06-16T19:50:12Z")
> [@avabeth](#): > > The two girls in the testing center went into practical hysterics over my scores - telling me that they had NEVER seen anyone score as high as I did. These were BASIC skills. I can’t even balance my checkbook properly and I got the highest score in the math that they’d ever seen in the center. That should have told me something right there. That should have told me that the Praxis isn’t a proper guage for skills. They were a joke. Your experience reminds me of something very vaguely related that happened to me. A few years ago I had to go for some training at my new job. It wasn’t that hard, but there were tests every day, stuff like that. The classes were no big deal. We’d do our tests at the end of each session (or whatever you call it) and I’d often twiddle my thumbs for a while before taking my finished test to the front of the room, because I felt so conspicuous always being one of the first ones to turn it in. I got the impression from one the ladies who taught the classes that I was pegged as one of the “smarter” ones. But it made no sense. The classes were not that hard. No false modesty here—I know I’m not stupid (I’ve always considered myself “above average”), but I’m just not _that_ remarkable. Not as remarkable as I was made to feel at times during those days of training. I couldn’t figure out what is going on. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/68 "2004-06-16T21:03:55Z")
This cracks me up. Most people here know the kind of idiot I can be. Nonetheless, when I got my GED the woman at the office where I went to get the results said I’d gotten the single highest score she had ever seen. This goes to show, I think, that it’s not JUST the schools. I think parents should take more responsibility. One sister, whose husband’s not all that bright, is very involved with her kids’ schoolwork. Her kids do really great in school and are literate an articulate. Another sister, whose husband is much smarter, doesn’t give a rat’s ass about her kids’ schoolwork. Her twin boys both flunked 8th grade and couldn’t spell CAT between them. Her daughter is dropping out and drugging up. ---
**Author:** ![jeevwoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@jeevwoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevwoman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/69 "2004-06-16T21:29:13Z")
Sure, parents are partly to blame, as are some teachers, but I have to say the majority of the blame lies on your step-daughter and others in the same position. Case in point: my sister the eye doctor cannot write to save her life. Her spelling is ok, but she can barely recognize sentence fragments and I cannot even tell you the number of times she asks me what a semi-colon is. Grrr. But my writing skills are actually quite good (please ignore any typos in this post, ok? 🙂 ) and I was the official proofreader in my college dorm. Yet we were raised by the same parents (both teachers!) and both took the same English classes in high school (we were both in AP classes, which is based primarily on your analytical skills, not your writing ones). Yes, we studied different things in college, but by then it’s too late, isn’t it? So what is the difference between the two of us, if not our teachers or our parents? It’s simply that a.) she doesn’t need writing skills to check your eyes and b.) she doesn’t care. People with poor grammar skills can easily buy themselves a book or take a class somewhere. It’s hardly rocket science here. My grammar is good because I insist upon it; hers is not because it means nothing to her. (Of course, her salary is probably about 3 times mine, so clearly it’s not done her any harm or me any good, but that’s another pit.) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/70 "2004-06-17T06:04:51Z")
**jebert** , may I ask you to do us all a favor? Ask your daughter if she can find and correct all of the errors in her email. I suspect that it is a matter of carelessness and not a lack of knowledge. But I am _dying_ to know. > [@](#): > > **sturmhauke** : Maybe I should count myself lucky. My 10th grade English teacher was a real hardass who got into the nitty-gritty of participles, gerunds, and other esoterica. I told you that you would thank me some day! 😃 When I went to college, five errors on a Vanderbilt English paper meant an automatic _F_. I was an English teacher, but I make silly mistakes now. Most of them are from not proofreading. My spelling is horrible and I don’t always reach for the dictionary. Some of you who are complaining about standards these days are making errors yourself. Few posts here have been perfect. I doubt that this one is. BTW, the word _English_, to the best of my knowledge, should always be capitalized. **Avabeth** said the most sensible thing: > [@](#): > > And in return, any person going for a teaching degree is required to take an extensive basic skills test - if you can’t pass basic spelling and grammar, you can’t be a teacher. Period. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/71 "2004-06-17T14:38:19Z")
This may be a harebrained theory, but here goes: I think that perhaps grammar exists not as a way of dictating how everyone should write, but as an evolving explanation of how it is that some people write so beautifully. That’s the way it is with the “rules” in art. They (the rules) don’t exist independently of art. The analysts and historians are always one step behind, seeking to justify and explain what succeeded. The funny thing is, rules are the only part that actually can be taught. I always thought it was a shoddy method of understanding, rather like an autopsy. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/72 "2004-06-17T23:58:09Z")
I’m sure there are flaws in my previous post here - there are probably flaws in nearly everything I’ve posted since I signed up on the boards. But I make an effort to catch all the mistakes that I can, because I want to be understood. That is the purpose of good grammar, above all things - it makes your meaning clear. If you break sentences. Into strange fragments. It makes things hard to understand. If you put commas, where they don’t belong, it makes things hard to understand. If ewe substitute won homonym four another, it makes things hard two understand. Good (not perfect) grammar is essential for clear communication, and it seems sometimes like it isn’t even being taught anymore. And that really bugs me. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/73 "2004-06-18T06:36:26Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Whom should you pit? > > Every single parent in the USA that does not take an active role in their children’s education. Every single teacher who does not have the integrity to fail a student because of poor English skills. Every single administrator who pressures a teacher to pass a student even though the student has poor English skills. Every braying liberal jackass who thinks that bi-lingual education is a good thing. > > In short, pretty much everybody gets a share of the blame. We as a society dug ourselves into this hole. We as a society have to stop digging and start climbing out of the hole. > > My $0.02 worth, anyway… You missed someone very, very important in your list–every single student who doesn’t care enough to learn this stuff. Teachers can coach, explain, cajole, and threaten until they’re blue in the face, and parents can participate, encourage, and support till the cows come home, but they can’t magically force this stuff into the kid’s brain. The student has to take an active role in the learning process. He has to make some effort. If he’s not willing to make the effort to learn something, the best teachers, parents, and educational system in the world won’t do a damn bit of good. Plenty of my former classmates couldn’t spell or punctuate properly to save their lives. Our “peer reviews” always left me with pounding headaches from the effort of wading through the spelling, punctuation, and gross grammatical errors to puzzle out the message. The problem wasn’t that they had poor teachers; we were in the same classes, and I managed to pick it up fairly well. The problem wasn’t that they had uninvolved parents; their parents were very active in the school community and in their education. The problem was that they flat-out didn’t give a shit. They thought it was stupid and boring and a waste of their time, so they didn’t bother to learn it. They didn’t know it in sixth grade, they didn’t know it in twelfth grade, and I’m willing to bet they _still_ don’t know it. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/74 "2004-06-18T06:55:09Z")
Oh, by the way…I didn’t think to comment that the students themselves should be pitted because, well, I figured that it was obvious. I don’t advocate letting students off the hook - quite the contrary. I’m a hardass when it comes to mistakes; I make all of my clients look everything up. I’m sure all of my students will love me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/75 "2004-06-18T07:04:27Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > This may be a harebrained theory, but here goes: > > I think that perhaps grammar exists not as a way of dictating how everyone should write, but as an evolving explanation of how it is that some people write so beautifully. That’s the way it is with the “rules” in art. They (the rules) don’t exist independently of art. The analysts and historians are always one step behind, seeking to justify and explain what succeeded. > > The funny thing is, rules are the only part that actually can be taught. I always thought it was a shoddy method of understanding, rather like an autopsy. Well, an art student would be best off by following the established ‘rules’ of art, just like a writer should learn the ‘rules’ of English. They’d learn how to do realistic sketches and paintings, and to emulate the masters. Once they’ve learned the rules, they can set them aside and go with their own vision. That’s what sets Jackson Pollock apart from any old guy flinging paint at a canvas and James Joyce from any high-school student who writes unpunctuated, run-on sentences. ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/76 "2004-06-18T09:41:24Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Nothing personal, **kitarak** - I just got a giggle out of this phrase. 😃 > > ‘Appalling’ has two 'p’s. Err… umm… yeah. I knew that. Really I did. It was deliberate self-referential humour. I mean, typo! Letter stealing gnomes! The hamsters ate it! Foo. Ok, the real truth is that it was probably a mental hiccup. If I’d thought about it I would have realised the correct spelling, but that slipped through my proofreading. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478/77 "2004-06-18T16:38:53Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > Well, an art student would be best off by following the established ‘rules’ of art, just like a writer should learn the ‘rules’ of English. They’d learn how to do realistic sketches and paintings, and to emulate the masters. Once they’ve learned the rules, they can set them aside and go with their own vision. That’s what sets Jackson Pollock apart from any old guy flinging paint at a canvas and James Joyce from any high-school student who writes unpunctuated, run-on sentences. Mmmmm, I really don’t think so. It is true that Picasso mastered realistic drawing (at the age of 8 or 10, IIRC) before moving on to his own interpretation. And there is a visual “grammar” in art that is taught to art students (or at least it used to be). But grammar and rules and conventions have nothing whatsoever to do with genius. They are the guidelines that help the rest of us limp along, aiming for some clarity of expression (whether visual or verbal). My sentences might be perfectly correct (note: I did say _might_), but they’ll never have the freshness of **Eve’s** writing. It’s a conundrum - the few who shine brightly do so regardless of the rules, and the idiots who can’t be bothered to understand the rules in the first place always seem to be my bosses. Even if they did write correctly, they still wouldn’t have anything interesting to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/education-and-the-educated-who-do-i-pit/250478.md?page=3)