# Edward Snowden: why extradite if you can't convict him? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081 "2013-06-15T18:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/1 "2013-06-15T18:19:02Z")
If you need 12 or 11 members of a jury to agree to convict, and only 30% of the jury population of the USA believes Snowden has committed any crime - nevermind crimes on this scale: > [@](#): > > “They’ve been trying to find a set of charges that might come with a 10- or 20-year term that will be acceptable to both governments and that will be consistent with the extradition treaty [between the U.S. and China].” [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263\_162-57589330/john-miller-edward-snowden-extradition-could-take-months-years/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57589330/john-miller-edward-snowden-extradition-could-take-months-years/) doesn’t it make the extradition situation seems a little awkward, perhaps esp. for a _liberal_ president? > [@](#): > > The new poll has 45% agreeing that Snowden has broken the rules of his employer, the US contractor Booz Allen Hamilton who work with the NSA, and should be reprimanded. One in five (22%) disagreed. > > **However, when asked whether they agreed with the statement that Snowden had committed a crime and needs to be prosecuted only 30% agreed** compared with 37% who disagree. > **[Prism whistleblower Edward Snowden a hero to 40%, poll finds](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/15/edward-snowden-prism-hero-poll)** > > Observer/Opinium poll also found 45% saying Edward Snowden should be reprimanded, but only 30% believing he had committed a crime ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/2 "2013-06-15T18:25:48Z")
Argh, I’m so sorry; just saw this at the bottom of the article: > [@](#): > > Opinium Research carried out an online survey of 1,942 GB adults aged 18+ from 12th to 14th June 2013, Results have been weighted to nationally representative criteria. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/3 "2013-06-15T18:56:47Z")
Doesn’t matter. OJ was found not guilty when the general public overwhelming thought otherwise. A jury is going to see and experience things differently from the generally uneducated public. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/4 "2013-06-15T19:02:38Z")
Also, jury selection exists in part to weed out people with fixed preconceptions about the case. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/5 "2013-06-15T19:30:53Z")
Don’t they have a similar jury system in the UK? They don’t just poll twelve good men and true from the mob hanging around outside the courthouse, do they? Because otherwise, I’m not sure the OP understands how a trial works. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/6 "2013-06-15T19:37:49Z")
I’d still quite like to see a poll of US citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/7 "2013-06-15T20:40:57Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I’d still quite like to see a poll of US citizens. What does it matter? Is your thesis that popular criminals shouldn’t be subject to arrest? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/8 "2013-06-15T20:52:45Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I’d still quite like to see a poll of US citizens. …the legal system is not a popularity contest. And thank goodness for that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/9 "2013-06-15T21:08:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the legal system is not a popularity contest. And thank goodness for that. Despite all the efforts of Nancy Grace to change it… ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/10 "2013-06-15T21:30:10Z")
There is no jury selection in the UK. It is random selection and unless you can be shown to have a compelling reason for not serving (connection to the case in some way, or massive personal inconvenience) then you are in. The USA method of cross-examination of jurors is alien to us. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/11 "2013-06-15T21:50:26Z")
The thought people put into answering polling questions is pretty minimal. I don’t think they’re that useful a gage of even finding out what public opinion is on an issue, nevermind how twelve poeple would feel once a lawyer spelled out what the actual charges are and the evidence against the defendant. Doesn’t seem much question of Snowden being innocent, he’s basically confessed. A jury would certainly find him guilty of at least some charges if he stood trial, regardless of what answers people with little knowledge of the case spit out to make the pollsters go away and stop asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/12 "2013-06-15T21:53:45Z")
This was an online poll which means that for all intents and purposes its useless. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/13 "2013-06-15T22:09:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There is no jury selection in the UK. It is random selection and unless you can be shown to have a compelling reason for not serving (connection to the case in some way, or massive personal inconvenience) then you are in. > > The USA method of cross-examination of jurors is alien to us. Not quite (unless it has changed radically in the 20 years since I was on a jury - always possible). In the UK the prosecution and defence are allowed to object to up to 3 jurors, or in trials with multiple defendants each defence team gets 3 objections. They may not, however, question any juror. The whole selection process takes less than an hour, including swearing in, rather than the whole circus that can occur in the US system. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/14 "2013-06-15T22:09:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The USA method of cross-examination of jurors is alien to us. It’s not “cross-examination”\*. Cross-examination is questioning of an adverse party’s _witness_. Questioning of a juror is called _voir dire_. Also, English jury selection is not entirely random. Jurors are generally disqualified if they know the parties or advocates, and can be challenged for cause, just like in the US. The only major distinctions are the lack of questioning and lack of peremptory challenges (and that only since 1988.) ETA: **ticker** , peremptory challenges were prohibited by the Criminal Evidence Act of 1988. ---
**Author:** ![Sudden\_Kestrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Sudden\_Kestrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sudden_Kestrel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/15 "2013-06-15T22:33:32Z")
I think that, if polled, most Americans would agree that they are unfamiliar with most of the evidence in Snowden’s case, so their beliefs on whether he’s guilty of a crime or not are pretty meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/16 "2013-06-15T22:52:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not “cross-examination”\*. Cross-examination is questioning of an adverse party’s _witness_. Questioning of a juror is called _voir dire_. bit of a nitpick for us non-legal people. “cross-examination” to me just means being questioned by both prosecution and defence. (and that doesn’t happen in the UK) > [@](#): > > The only major distinctions are the lack of questioning and lack of peremptory challenges only major distinctions? 🙂 that was my whole point. They don’t get grilled. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/17 "2013-06-15T23:02:09Z")
_shrug_ It’s a term of art, with no meaning independent of its legal sense, so it’s not really a nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/18 "2013-06-15T23:31:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _shrug_ It’s a term of art, with no meaning independent of its legal sense, so it’s not really a nitpick. I think pulling legal dictionary definition rank over common usage is pretty much the epitome of nitpick but…as you say…_shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/19 "2013-06-16T03:15:23Z")
[There _is_ no such common usage](http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/cross--examine?q=cross-examination#cross--examine__14). The definition you ascribed is peculiar to you. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081/20 "2013-06-16T03:57:15Z")
I think there’s no point in asking anyone this question who has not read the NDA this fellow signed. Because the NDA spells out the charges and penalties if one violates said NDA. The Judge will make this information quite clear to the jury. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowden-why-extradite-if-you-cant-convict-him/661081.md?page=2)