# Edward Snowden's Christmas broadcast **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147 "2013-12-25T15:07:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/41 "2013-12-26T18:45:59Z")
> [@Caffeine.addict](#): > > I agree that social networking does have positive benefits and I use it to, but in a sense I worry that my kids won’t have the same opportunities in life to start over socially that I did. When I went to college, it was starting from a clean slate. It was an opportunity, but let’s not forget that having to make lots of new friends every time you started at a new school also kind of sucked. > [@](#): > > Is that really possible now when your social media history is out there, not just on your page but also on your friend’s page. There was [Justine Sacco’](http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/22/world/sacco-offensive-tweet/)s stupid tweet which has probably cost her career. It seems like a fleeting moment of stupidity and insensitivity can live forever and that troubles me somewhat. Sort of true, but it’s also true that we get over these collective hissy fits pretty fast. And most of the poor unfortunate victims of these self-inflicted wounds are able to start over with a higher profile, which means they can make more money. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/42 "2013-12-26T18:52:15Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Power? They have incredile information-gathering, but what can they _do_ with this information? What actions have they taken with this information (beyond fucking with RSA, which RSA _agreed_ to), what could they do? They have the power to gather a lot of information. What can they do with this information? Someone help me out, I just don’t get it. Like, to expand on this, the STASI had information-gathering of an at least comparable scale. But when they found out you said something they didn’t like, they could throw you in jail indefinitely with no charges, trial, or sentence. What can the NSA do? Well, if they find out that you did something which is actually illegal, they can pass that information on to other authorities. …Huh, I’m not that bothered. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/43 "2013-12-26T18:55:06Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > c’mon, the people of the US are in a worse position than East Germans were under the STASI- and you want to diss the guy that eventually made you aware of that … All countries spy on the other’s, Snowden Isn’t interested in the USA; as I see it , if he were, he would have talked to the People of the uSA and not go to former enemies to make his spiel, He hasn’t helped to bring peace but a sword, causing more problems than were there before. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/44 "2013-12-26T19:03:43Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Like, to expand on this, the STASI had information-gathering of an at least comparable scale. But when they found out you said something they didn’t like, they could throw you in jail indefinitely with no charges, trial, or sentence. What can the NSA do? Well, if they find out that you did something which is actually illegal, they can pass that information on to other authorities. > > …Huh, I’m not that bothered. What am I missing? The Constitution puts limits on the authorities to prevent the kind of abuse you’re talking about, and some of the NSA’s actions circumvent those limits. See the problem? > [@monavis](#): > > All countries spy on the other’s That doesn’t mean they spy on each other without limit and for every conceivable purpose. > [@](#): > > Snowden Isn’t interested in the USA; as I see it , if he were, he would have talked to the People of the uSA and not go to former enemies to make his spiel “Former enemy.” I like that. It sounds serious and completely falls apart on examination. And he is talking to the people of the USA through the press. > [@](#): > > He hasn’t helped to bring peace but a sword, causing more problems than were there before. Yeah: before Snowden acted, the NSA was abusing its authority and that was our only problem. Now the NSA is abusing its authority _and_ we know about it, so people keep arguing about it. What an inconvenience! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/45 "2013-12-26T19:05:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Constitution puts limits on the authorities to prevent the kind of abuse you’re talking about, and some of the NSA’s actions circumvent those limits. See the problem? Do they, though? Have there been lawsuits? Has it been taken to court? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/46 "2013-12-26T19:22:09Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Do they, though? Have there been lawsuits? Has it been taken to court? [A week and a half ago a judge said the collection of telephone metadata without a warrant was probably unconstitutional.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/16/judge-nsa-surveillance-fourth-amendment/4041995/) Since this stuff only came to light recently, any litigation is in the early stages. Just for fun, here’s a cute NSA trick that [isn’t even Snowden-related](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-nsa-idUSBRE9740AI20130805): [earlier this year it came out that the NSA and the DEA were working together in secret and hiding the sources of their work](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805). ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/47 "2013-12-26T19:22:30Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Power? They have incredile information-gathering, but what can they _do_ with this information? What actions have they taken with this information (beyond fucking with RSA, which RSA _agreed_ to), what could they do? They have the power to gather a lot of information. What can they do with this information? Someone help me out, I just don’t get it. When you collect EVERYTHING, fucking with the system becomes trivially easy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/48 "2013-12-26T20:14:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Constitution puts limits on the authorities to prevent the kind of abuse you’re talking about, and some of the NSA’s actions circumvent those limits. See the problem? Okay, but what are those actions? Are they putting people in jail for thought crimes? Are they trumping up charges? Are people disappearing in the middle of the night? Are people finding it impossible to get employment in their chosen field because of selectively applied pressure? How, precisely, are the NSA’s actions impacting the lives of the Americans they’re spying on? Again, I think they’ve abused their authority, and I think they need to be reined in. But I take this position primarily on principle, because I think people have a right to an assumption of privacy. I’m genuinely unaware of cases in which their spying has had a directly deleterious effect on any American beyond the sense of violation you get from being spied on. I very well may be ignorant of other harms they’re causing, and would appreciate education if I am. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/49 "2013-12-26T20:39:40Z")
I’m not aware of anything beyond the broader Constitutional violations. That may well be it as far as U.S. residents are concerned, not that we would know otherwise at this early stage. The comparison to the Stasi is overblown. The NSA isn’t the secret police. But I read **Budget Player Cadet** ’s first post as suggesting this isn’t such a huge deal because the NSA can’t do anything with the information it’s compiling. Even if that’s true I think it’s trivial because they can easily share that information with the FBI or the DEA or other agencies. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/50 "2013-12-26T21:40:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, but what are those actions? Are they putting people in jail for thought crimes? Are they trumping up charges? Are people disappearing in the middle of the night? Are people finding it impossible to get employment in their chosen field because of selectively applied pressure? How, precisely, are the NSA’s actions impacting the lives of the Americans they’re spying on? I would be less worried about what they are doing now and more worried about what they might do in the future. These capabilities are not going away and I doubt the NSA is going to use them to remind citizens that their milk in the fridge is about to go bad. These vast powers need some checks and balances. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/51 "2013-12-26T21:56:38Z")
Nice to see the old “if you’re not a criminal [you have nothing to hide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument#Arguments_in_favor_and_against_the_nothing_to_hide_argument)” fallacies are flying in this thread like we’re not a bunch of educated adults who should know better. Pervasive surveillance chills speech for one. Another is that we all commit harmless crimes. This means every American’s freedom is held hostage by a stranger at the NSA and whatever selective enforcement they’d like to apply. And if “selective enforcement” doesn’t do the trick, “blackmail” often will. As Bruce Schneier says: it’s not about privacy versus security, it’s liberty versus control. This level of pervasive surveillance is only necessary if your goal is pervasive control. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/52 "2013-12-26T22:01:23Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > I would be less worried about what they are doing now and more worried about what they might do in the future. These capabilities are not going away and I doubt the NSA is going to use them to remind citizens that their milk in the fridge is about to go bad. These vast powers need some checks and balances. Fair enough. Is that an agreement that they’ve not done anything with the information worse than the real and unacceptable harm of violating privacy? Certainly the potential for abuse is a real thing. I think it speaks well to our system that abuses like this meet with such serious pushback, even as it speaks ill of our system that such abuses can occur. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/53 "2013-12-26T22:02:17Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > This level of pervasive surveillance is only necessary if your goal is pervasive control. Worse; it’s panicky ass-covering and super budget-justifying. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/54 "2013-12-26T23:20:53Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Nice to see the old “if you’re not a criminal [you have nothing to hide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument#Arguments_in_favor_and_against_the_nothing_to_hide_argument)” fallacies are flying in this thread like we’re not a bunch of educated adults who should know better. > > Pervasive surveillance chills speech for one. Another is that we all commit harmless crimes. This means every American’s freedom is held hostage by a stranger at the NSA and whatever selective enforcement they’d like to apply. And if “selective enforcement” doesn’t do the trick, “blackmail” often will. As Bruce Schneier says: it’s not about privacy versus security, it’s liberty versus control. This level of pervasive surveillance is only necessary if your goal is pervasive control. Cites for the NSA “chilling speech”, “seeking pervasive control”, or engaging in “blackmail”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/55 "2013-12-27T00:25:03Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Nice to see the old “if you’re not a criminal [you have nothing to hide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument#Arguments_in_favor_and_against_the_nothing_to_hide_argument)” fallacies are flying in this thread like we’re not a bunch of educated adults who should know better. Who’s making that argument? Certainly not me. > [@](#): > > Pervasive surveillance chills speech for one. Hmm…this seems plausible. Do we have any evidence of this occurring? > [@](#): > > Another is that we all commit harmless crimes. This means every American’s freedom is held hostage by a stranger at the NSA and whatever selective enforcement they’d like to apply. And if “selective enforcement” doesn’t do the trick, “blackmail” often will. As Bruce Schneier says: it’s not about privacy versus security, it’s liberty versus control. This level of pervasive surveillance is only necessary if your goal is pervasive control. Of this, I’m unaware of any cases in which selective enforcement has been applied using NSA’s data, much less of any blackmail that has occurred. Are you thinking of specific cases? Again, I’m certainly willing to be educated. I don’t think what the NSA has done is all right, and I think this is the latest in a long list of our nation’s leaders conducting inappropriate surveillance of its citizens (Hiya, NYC cops spying on mosques! How’s it hanging, COINTELPRO?) But I want to separate legitimate concerns from scaremongering, and if you have legitimate concerns about blackmail and selective enforcement of laws using NSA data, please give us specifics. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/56 "2013-12-27T14:48:37Z")
Selective enforcement: DEA and “[parallel construction](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05/the-nsa-is-giving-your-phone-records-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up/)”. [Blackmail](http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-nsa-spying-on-and-blackmailing-high-level-government-officials-and-military-officers.html). Chilled speech by definition usually doesn’t leave much evidence, but nevertheless: [Chilled](http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2013/11/21/survey-1-in-6-writershaveselfcensoredbecauseofnsasurveillance.html) [speech](https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-files-22-firsthand-accounts-how-nsa-surveillance-chilled-right-association). I’m going to have to leave “pervasive control”. It may simply be a power grab for budget and political reasons now, as **Marley23** suggests. But where do you think it will end up? I’m not going to offer motives for people I don’t know. But I can see where this is heading. Eventually the government stops paying for things that it doesn’t use. So this data will (continue to) be used, or the NSA will stop collecting it. That’s the choice, and I know which one I as a voter choose. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/57 "2013-12-27T15:23:54Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > [Blackmail](http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-nsa-spying-on-and-blackmailing-high-level-government-officials-and-military-officers.html). This sounds like paranoid nonsense, and it’s based on a single source who didn’t provide any proof. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/58 "2013-12-27T16:48:54Z")
Fair enough. Someone asked for evidence, and I provided some. It may not be compelling or airtight, but someone who was in a position to know better than us said it is happening. It is enough to cause concern, without being an open and shut case. Indeed, the fact that it is _possible_ is enough. Now every politician who defends the NSA or spying on Americans is suspect. Do they really believe that, or does the NSA have dirt on them? Every call to action for a war, every “foiled terrorist plot”, every “independent review” of surveillance, every argument for budget increase is suspect because they might be an NSA puppet. Nobody has to actually have been blackmailed for the _possibility_ of blackmail to erode society’s trust in our political leaders. The NSA simply _possessing_ that information is enough to weaken our society. This is yet another reason why collecting this information is wrong, even if it is never used. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/59 "2013-12-27T16:51:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I haven’t heard about the U.S. granting citizenships to the people of the countries \*it \*occupies. [Indian Citizenship Act of 1924](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Citizenship_Act_of_1924). 1924-1776=148, so as long as you grant the Palenstinians citizenship before 2096, you’re ahead of us. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147/60 "2013-12-27T16:53:57Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > c’mon, the people of the US are in a worse position than East Germans were under the STASI- and you want to diss the guy that eventually made you aware of that … I don’t know what part of you is “broken”, Briton. You seem intact and in very good form, from where I’m standing. Good response. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-snowdens-christmas-broadcast/677147.md?page=4)