# Edward VIII of England, Wallis Simpson, and a Morganatic Marriage. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323 "2016-02-17T08:13:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/21 "2016-02-18T01:34:14Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > It wasn’t just England, there were Commonwealth nations (particularly Canada, Australia and Ireland) that were also opposed to the marriag . . . The Irish Free State, at least officially, couldn’t give a stuff about the marriage, beyond welcoming it as affording an opportunity, when they legislated to give effect to the abdication, to make a few other changes to diminish the role of the British crown in the Irish constitution. Northern Ireland had its own parliament and executive within the UK, but matters relating to the crown were outside its competence. The marriage probably would not have been popular in NI, but the NI Prime Minister of the time, James Craig, was not consulted about the abdication, and the NI Parliament didn’t need to take any action to give effect to it. So, officially, Northern Ireland took no position at all on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/22 "2016-02-18T02:17:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s often suggested the divorcee issue was just an excuse. > > It really was not. Wallis Simpson’s being a divorcee was a very serious matter. 1936 was a different time than 2016, and the royals were held to a higher, if implausible and phony, standard. To people of both high and low status in 1936 this was a serious issue. Divorce and carrying on in public (remember that Simpson was still married when Edward started nailing her, and not in secret) was a matter of far more scandal now than it is today. People were really judgmental about that stuff. > > Of course, it is also true that Edward was obviously going to be the worst king in a very long time, an opinion shared by anyone who knew him, including his own family; he was a man of breathtaking stupidity and shallowness of character. Had Edward been a smarter and more decent human being, perhaps the reaction would have been different. But there still would have been a hugely negative reaction and a serious Constitutional crisis. Very true, all of this. It was barely a generation earlier that Alice Liddell, she of _Alice in Wonderland_ fame, had grown into a beautiful young woman and was courted by Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, the youngest son of Queen Victoria. She could have married into royalty but Queen Vic would have none of it because … well, because she was a mere commoner. Rejected by royalty, she ended up marrying a failed businessman and living an unhappy life descending into eventual poverty. Stupid or not – and he probably was – the salient feature of Edward is that he just didn’t want to be king. As Prince of Wales he would constantly lament the terrible business of “doing prince things” which he vehemently detested. He also enthusiastically met with top Nazi officials and even once with Hitler himself. To be sure, at the time Hitler and the Nazis were regarded as fervent German patriots and not as the monsters they turned out to be, but this wasn’t exactly weighing in his favor. It was all a complicated mess but his decision to abdicate was a merciful way of putting an end to it all, and good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/23 "2016-02-18T02:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > It was barely a generation earlier that Alice Liddell, she of Alice in Wonderland fame, had grown into a beautiful young woman and was courted by Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, the youngest son of Queen Victoria. She could have married into royalty but Queen Vic would have none of it because … well, because she was a mere commoner. Rejected by royalty, she ended up marrying a failed businessman and living an unhappy life descending into eventual poverty. ??? She was married to a famous cricketer, who inherited a fortune, and was a local magistrate. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/24 "2016-02-18T02:58:16Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Very true, all of this. It was barely a generation earlier that Alice Liddell, she of _Alice in Wonderland_ fame, had grown into a beautiful young woman and was courted by Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, the youngest son of Queen Victoria. She could have married into royalty but Queen Vic would have none of it because … well, because she was a mere commoner. Rejected by royalty, she ended up marrying a failed businessman and living an unhappy life descending into eventual poverty. Well, I think the “Prince Leopold wanted to marry her” thing is a bit speculative. He knew her, but there isn’t much evidence that he wanted to marry her and, if anything, he was a closer to her sister Edith. But, yes, Queen Victoria did insist on her children marrying only into royalty. But things were quite different by the 1930s. Only one of David’s brothers and sisters married royalty, and several married commoners. Mary had married the heir to the Earl of Harewood in 1922. Bertie (who became George VI) had married a commoner (Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyons) back in 1923. (Yes, her father was an Earl, but she herself was a commoner.) Henry married a daughter of the Duke of Buccleuch, also a commoner, in 1935. Only George (who became Duke of Kent) married royalty; Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark. So the problem with Wallis Simpson was not really that she was a commoner. That could have been dealt with, probably. The problems were (a) that she had been twice divorced, and (b) that she was as unsuited to being Queen as David was to being King. And, of the two, the divorce was much the bigger problem. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/25 "2016-02-18T03:03:50Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But, yes, Queen Victoria did insist on her children marrying only into royalty. nitpick: Victoria’s daughter [Princess Louise](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Louise,_Duchess_of_Argyll#Marriage) married non-royally, to a British nobleman, the Duke of Argyll. Queen Victoria approved of and seems to have encouraged the match. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/26 "2016-02-18T03:06:57Z")
She was more than just a commoner, though: she was an American. You can elevate a British commoner. Elevating an American is a whole different animal. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/27 "2016-02-18T03:07:15Z")
> [@](#): > > So the problem with Wallis Simpson was not really that she was a commoner. That could have been dealt with, probably. The problems were (a) that she had been twice divorced, and (b) that she was as unsuited to being Queen as David was to being King. And, of the two, the divorce was much the bigger problem. And (c) she was American. ---
**Author:** ![quiltguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e47774/32.png) [@quiltguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quiltguy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/28 "2016-02-18T03:18:25Z")
“Such is the role of sex in history, my children.” -Eleanor of Aquitaine, in “The Lion in Winter.” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/29 "2016-02-18T03:33:21Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > And (c) she was American. Not really such a problem, I think. It was common for British royalty to marry foreigners. (Indeed, they had to, if they wanted to marry royalty.) And while none of them had previously married Americans, quite a number of senior aristocrats had done so. Americans were certainly not beyond the pale, socially. No, it was the divorces, mainly. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/30 "2016-02-18T03:43:04Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Archduke Ferdinand (he of the Sarajevo assassination) was the heir to the Austrian Empire and he married Countess Sophie Chotek, who was considered too low in rank to be married to the heir, morganatically. Their children were not given Imperial titles and were not considered in the line of inheritance. > > Edward VIII’s own mother was the descendant of a morganatic marriage. Her father was Duke Francis of Teck, whose parents were morganatically married. Yet both of those marriages were made in other countries. (Queen Mary’s great-grandfather was King of Wurttemberg). And in both of those cases, the people were NOT divorced. Remember that Edward would’ve been the head of the Church of England, which frowned on divorce. So it wouldn’t have been a good idea to have the King married to someone who had been divorced _once_, let alone _twice_. And as stated, Edward was a selfish moron who cared more about being a playboy than he did about being a king. And he was a freaking Nazi sympathizer. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/31 "2016-02-18T04:06:36Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > ??? > > She was married to a famous cricketer, who inherited a fortune, and was a local magistrate. Yes, Reginald Hargreaves, who did indeed inherit money and a magnificent estate called Cuffnells featuring the finest great house in the area with twelve bedrooms and massive rooms for entertainment. But he was bad at managing money and constantly had to sell off pieces of the estate; two of their three sons died in the first world war, and by all accounts Alice had an unhappy life. After Reginald died, things got still worse financially, and when Alice herself died, the great house was in such disrepair that it was torn down. In perhaps the most poignant finale to the whole thing, nothing was ever built in its place. The vaunted estate where Alice once lived most of her adult life has now returned to natural woodland, as if she had never been. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/32 "2016-02-18T17:02:42Z")
We’ve been down this road before: > **[Why would British PM resign over a scandal with the King?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=631565)** > > British King Edward VIII abdicated the throne because being King prevented him from marrying a divorced American. OK, that seems harsh by today’s standards, but guess people cared about that back then. But here’s what I don’t get – Wikipedia says... > **[Edward and Mrs Simpson](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=519003)** > > There was a programme on UK TV last night covering this remarkable story. What I fail to understand is why “The Establishment” refused to allow King Edward to marry the woman he loved. he had suggested a morgantic marriage which meant that should... > **[Brits: If Edward VIII had not abdicated . . .](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=516930)** > > If Edward VIII had not abdicated, who would be the current British Monarch? Assume all births, deaths and marriages would not change. And assume Edward would not have to give up the throne. Unless I’m mistaken . . . Edward would remain King until... > **[Why did Edward VIII abdicate?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257593)** > > First I’ll say I don’t know beans about the rules of royalty. But here goes: Edward VIII married a commoner. Apparently that was something he could not do and remain king. Why? If I’m the king, for example, why can’t I say, “I’m the king, and... ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/33 "2016-02-18T18:53:06Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Not really such a problem, I think. It was common for British royalty to marry foreigners. (Indeed, they had to, if they wanted to marry royalty.) And while none of them had previously married Americans, quite a number of senior aristocrats had done so. Americans were certainly not beyond the pale, socially. > > No, it was the divorces, mainly. British royals marry foreign royalty in that era. They marry British commoners, but only those with noble backgrounds (i.e. the daughter of a peer). Wallis was not foreign royalty. Nor did she have a noble background. British peers married American heiresses, but British peers are most definitely not royalty. Wallis was not an American heiress by any means. By no measure was she an appropriate consort for the king. Mistress, sure. I don’t know if Harry would be successful marrying a twice divorced American with no family connections without facing a huge backlash - its possible it would be years before his wife was received in an official capacity. Charles and Camillas marriage only happened after years - and when Camilla was well into menopause - and she is British, from a very good family (her maternal grandfather is a peer, her father a very well respected military man) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/34 "2016-02-18T19:08:47Z")
And her [great-grandmother](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Keppel) was the mistress of Charles’ great-great-grandfather, Edward VII. Can’t get a more respectable blood-line than that! ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/35 "2016-02-18T20:14:15Z")
And its possible her great grandmother was the child of Edward VII. But decent from a mistress does not good breeding make. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/36 "2016-02-18T23:48:39Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > After Reginald died, things got still worse financially, and when Alice herself died, the great house was in such disrepair that it was torn down. Alice had been dead for nearly twenty years before the house was demolished (she died in 1934; it lasted into the early 1950s). In fact, her son operated it as a hotel in the later 1930s and it was requisitioned for military housing during the war. Caryl Hargreaves sold it in 1948, and the new owner, Peter Barker-Mill, also bought the adjoining estate, where he likewise pulled down that house and turned the whole thing into dairy farms. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/37 "2016-02-19T06:21:37Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > But decent from a mistress does not good breeding make. Considering that Henry VII’s claim to the throne was based in part on his descent from John of Gaunt’s mistress, and that all subsequent English / British monarchs, including Her Majesty, trace their bloodline to Henry, that’s perhaps not so strong an argument. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/38 "2016-02-19T08:44:49Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Considering that Henry VII’s claim to the throne was based in part on his descent from John of Gaunt’s mistress, and that all subsequent English / British monarchs, including Her Majesty, trace their bloodline to Henry, that’s perhaps not so strong an argument. 😉 And they all trace their ancestry to William the Bastard – Duke of Normandy, and King William I of England by conquest – whose parents were not married. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/39 "2016-02-19T09:05:51Z")
And what does it take to claim legitimacy? Conquest. Not much more to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323/40 "2016-02-19T11:25:29Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Considering that Henry VII’s claim to the throne was based in part on his descent from John of Gaunt’s mistress, and that all subsequent English / British monarchs, including Her Majesty, trace their bloodline to Henry, that’s perhaps not so strong an argument. 😉 It is if you keep in mind the eras and the state of the monarchy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edward-viii-of-england-wallis-simpson-and-a-morganatic-marriage/746323.md?page=3)