# Edwin Starr - War, did the song's meaning get lost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [October 15, 2024, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840 "2024-10-15T17:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/21 "2024-10-15T21:28:11Z")
Maybe you had to be there to get how incredibly pervasive Vietnam was in culture, especially youth culture. Any song about war - about the government, or the president, or the establishment - meant a song about “Vietnam.” Not WWII or the Civil War or any “good” wars. Trying to make others understand that “good” wars were obsolete was all that mattered. The government was lying to us, feeding hundreds of thousands of young men, disproportionately black, into the grinder of jungle war, and heavily propagandizing to make any critics enemies of the state. The President of the United States had a literal, written out enemies list. I don’t blame people today who just hear the riff and want to shout it out loud. Nobody later can imagine those times. Just like we in the “youth culture” couldn’t imagine what it was like to live through a time when wars were “good,” every action of the government was laudable, and critics were literally enemies of the state. The world flipped in a quarter century. It’s flipped again since. Into an incoherent splat rather than a cultural whole, but totally different. You hadda be there. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/22 "2024-10-15T21:55:53Z")
_War: What is it Good For_ was actually the original title of _War and Peace_. ---
**Author:** ![XOldiesJock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ec9cab/32.png) [@XOldiesJock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XOldiesJock)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/23 "2024-10-15T22:09:13Z")
Love a Seinfeld reference! We think alike. It’s the first thing that came to my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2024, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/24 "2024-10-15T22:39:24Z")
I’ve always preferred [Bruce Springsteen’s cover](https://youtu.be/mn91L9goKfQ?t=115), myself. It’s much more forceful, and much angrier - as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/25 "2024-10-16T02:58:15Z")
You want forceful and angry? Bruce’s version is pretty. Go for hardcore punk pioneers D.O.A. Joe Shithead and band blow away Bruce for this one. [D.O.A. - War - (Live at the Assasination Club, Bierkellar, Leeds, UK, 1984) (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMKX8uytTCo) Or the original album version released in 1982: [War (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZnDkcQMl5U) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/26 "2024-10-16T13:35:02Z")
I was going to say, literally from the very first time I heard it, it was clearly anti-war. Maybe if you don’t speak the language you may be confused, but the lyrics aren’t buried, they’re not subtle at all, they hit you immediately, and they are repeated. Hell, there’s barely any backing music in the intro part, just some stabs here and there. You actively have to be not listening to miss it. > [@nelliebly](#): > > > War! What is it good for? > > Absolutely nothing! > > I like Starr’s forceful rendition and his voice in general, and I get that people like or need lyrics that are obvious, but when compared with so many other anti-war songs, the lyrics are just not that great. I like that part. It very much gives it a protest chant-like quality to it. I thought that’s exactly what it was trying to echo, from the rhythms to the verbiage. Think of protest chants. How complicated are they usually? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/27 "2024-10-16T14:15:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Think of protest chants. How complicated are they usually? It’s one-two-three What are we fighting for? Don’t ask me I don’t give a damn Next stop is Viet Nam ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/28 "2024-10-16T14:19:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I was going to say, literally from the very first time I heard it, it was clearly anti-war. I also was born well after the song was released and I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard the full song (only clips from compilation album commercials and _maybe_ soundtracks?), and I knew it was anti-war, just from those lines. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/29 "2024-10-16T14:37:39Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Well, **he** didn’t write it, and the original group was The Temptations. Even “good wars” are terrible for many. **Edwin Starr** …? Here all this time I thought this was performed by the _band_ **War**. [always fully grokked the intended meaning tho, having been a lyric hound since I was in preschool] Note I got into the topic of banal anti-war songs this past week in another thread with the Damned song “In Dulce Decorum” which apparently disagrees with Winston Churchill that they shouldn’t have fought the Germans at all, but is more than willing to throw in their lot with the likes of Lord Haw Haw. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/30 "2024-10-16T14:40:38Z")
If you have ever heard the song before, even a snippet, those are the words you remember. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/31 "2024-10-16T14:59:37Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > **Edwin Starr** …? Here all this time I thought this was performed by the _band_ **War**. Wait till you learn who sang “Cat’s in the Cradle”… ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/32 "2024-10-16T15:46:56Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > > [@John\_DiFool](#): > > > > **Edwin Starr** …? Here all this time I thought this was performed by the _band_ **War**. > > Wait till you learn who sang “Cat’s in the Cradle”… Joe Cradle? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/33 "2024-10-16T15:50:34Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Here all this time I thought this was performed by the _band_ **War**. Why can’t we be friends? Because of mistakes like this. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/34 "2024-10-16T17:17:29Z")
> [@Seanette](#): > > Still, when someone whose own ancestors presumably benefitted from a war by being freed from slavery claims there is never any positive result of a war, it just sounds stupid and dismissive of the people who did gain from it (such as, presumably, at least some of the ancestors of the black musicians in question). In “Jingo” one of the Night Watch, more or less conscripted, quotes these lines. Nobby responds “getting rid of evil dictators, for one.” I don’t own that one, so that is very vaguely what he says. pTerry says it best, as usual. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/35 "2024-10-16T18:02:57Z")
I was also too young for the Edwin Starr version and first heard the Frankie Goes To Hollywood cover. It was the b-side of “Two Tribes” (hint: also an anti-war song, about the Cold War to be precise) and also on “Welcome To The Pleasure Dome”, I still own my 40 years old copy. When Bruce Springsteen’s version was released on “Live 1975-85” (which I got for my 18th birthday from friends) and on single, I thought he had covered FGTH, and I don’t remember when I first heard the Edwin Starr version. But it was clear to me from the beginning that it’s an anti-war anthem, it’s so very obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/36 "2024-10-16T18:04:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In “Jingo” one of the Night Watch, more or less conscripted, quotes these lines. Nobby responds “getting rid of evil dictators, for one.” I don’t own that one, so that is very vaguely what he says. > pTerry says it best, as usual. Haven’t gotten around to reading Discworld (yet), but from what I’ve seen about it, should be worthwhile when I feel like tackling that much backlog. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/37 "2024-10-16T18:10:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Edwin Starr is more rock. Good God, y’all! ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/38 "2024-10-16T19:31:24Z")
For what it’s worth, “War” wasn’t written by Starr (it was Motown house writers Whitfield and Strong); he wasn’t even the first one to record it. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D0K3LJq9KnU/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AHUBoAC4AOKAgwIABABGF8gZShSMA8=&rs=AOn4CLCKZ9uXYl0ZsuQH9gweJm2SKE2SaQ "The Temptations - War") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0K3LJq9KnU) ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/39 "2024-10-16T19:34:06Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > > [@aceplace57](#): > > > > Edwin Starr is more rock. > > Good God, y’all! Starr was “Agent Double-O-Soul” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840/40 "2024-10-16T19:45:15Z")
Does the song have a strong marching beat that evokes violence? Sure. Indisputably. How many people are confused about what the song _War_ actually means? I’d put the upper boundary somewhere around 1, give or take. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/edwin-starr-war-did-the-songs-meaning-get-lost/1008840.md?page=3)